Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

doctorbadwolf said:

Swashbuckler/battle master is also really good, and I’d say that CBE is great for any rogue but swashbuckler. It’s a better bonus actionbattack than a dagger or a shortsword, works fine with a rapier in the main hand, and allows you to bop a second dude after face-stabbing the guy in front of you, even if dude 2 is out of your run+melee reach.

Sentinel is beautiful, in a group with multiple melee PCs, but especially with a tank with a mark ability of any kind. They attack you with disad, but you bop them if they attack the tank. I like leaving the enemy no good choices.

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Zardnaar said:

My players often build parties that compliment each other. For example one had a Dex based melee Battlemaster. Normally sub optimal started granting attacks to the Rogue or Ranger. Think the cleric had a decent Dex as well and all trained in stealth. Early combat was often the initiative roll mid battle surprise late battle round one maybe 2.

Party was good at ranged, melee, etc didn't matter.

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FrogReaver said:

[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION]

A rogue that can self cast haste is a very scary character. It's a good thing that only comes up at level 13+.

If I were to do a combat focused rogue I would find a way to add in some NOVA damage capabilities. I think rogue at will damage is about right. It's just paladin's divine smite and fighter's action surge really tend to overshadow them. I feel like a combat focused rogue needs an X times per rest ability that allows him to deal damage as if he had crit on his next hit or something similar.

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Zardnaar said:

That's the problem with the Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight and Champion. They get good later than the other subclasses. And most games end before level 10.

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FrogReaver said:

EK is fine if you consider him as the defensive and out of combat option instead of an offensive powerhouse. But there's just not very good evocation and abjuration low level spells and so you have to get your good spells elsewhere. That's the EK's biggest hindrance. Champion gets no good abilities till way later. Arcane Trickster is basically the rogue version of the EK, consider it the defensive and out of combat option. However, at least it's schools of magic offer a lot of good spell options.

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Zardnaar said:

I find they don't get enough spells for to long relative to the abilities of the other classes.

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They also have issues around casting the sells raw if you sword and board or dual wield. Or you think rogue plus green flame blade is a good idea (it's not until the later levels and even that's debatable).

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FrogReaver said:

[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION]

A rogue that can self cast haste is a very scary character. It's a good thing that only comes up at level 13+.

If I were to do a combat focused rogue I would find a way to add in some NOVA damage capabilities. I think rogue at will damage is about right. It's just paladin's divine smite and fighter's action surge really tend to overshadow them. I feel like a combat focused rogue needs an X times per rest ability that allows him to deal damage as if he had crit on his next hit or something similar.

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FrogReaver said:

Until they reach second level spells I tend to agree, but you mostly need to save them for defense or very situationally strong uses or out of combat helpers. Once you reach 2nd level spells at level 7 there's some good defensive buffs and even a good offensive one for a fighter now (shadow blade).



Well, once you reach 2nd level spells you either prebuff or buff on turn 1 and then you fight like normal. So it's really not an impact at that point. It does impact the shield spell and absorb elements though which is unfortunate. A lot of DM's ignore that restriction so I guess there's that. IMO they shouldn't have restricted spell schools for the 1/3 casters and they would have felt much better.

As far as rogues and Greenflame blade I agree. The better option is booming blade as you can bonus action disengage and perform hit and run tactics. That's interesting and fairly effective. I seem to recall thinking just the scaling cantrip damage on greenflame/booming wasn't worth it later and then I did some math and proved myself wrong. Though I could be misremembering as that was a long time ago.

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doctorbadwolf said:

I’m coming around to that, yeah. I really think the Assassin should have allowed the level 3 crit thing on a target that is surprised, or from which you are hidden. Once per combat, at most, is completely negligible in many games, maybe most.

I’d happily see a “Lethal Ambusher” feat that drops an enemy to 0 if you drop it below X hp with an attack with Advantage, and lets you add an extra weapon damage die when you attack while hidden.

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