Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, not going to play along.

I have clearly put down the facts. The rogue can't come close to its optimum unless you play without feats, and without friends. The lack of building blocks for those of us who wants a martial character with defense traded for offense makes the rogue a poor option.

Which is a real downer. All classes of D&D are built so they can participate in the (by far) main event of the game: combat.

Having the Rogue have such gaping holes in its design is a major flaw. That it does work for some is no excuse for not providing the building blocks for the rest of us.

So again I'm telling I can only offer meaningful advice if more DPR than the PHB standard is allowed, since more DPR is exactly what the Rogue class is missing.

But you turned the thread from a fun exercise in character design to an interrogation of my assumptions. Allow me to uninvite myself from your thread.

Next time, don't invite people when your aim is only to antagonize them.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

Sorry, not going to play along.

I have clearly put down the facts. The rogue can't come close to its optimum unless you play without feats, and without friends. The lack of building blocks for those of us who wants a martial character with defense traded for offense makes the rogue a poor option.

Which is a real downer. All classes of D&D are built so they can participate in the (by far) main event of the game: combat.

Having the Rogue have such gaping holes in its design is a major flaw. That it does work for some is no excuse for not providing the building blocks for the rest of us.

So again I'm telling I can only offer meaningful advice if more DPR than the PHB standard is allowed, since more DPR is exactly what the Rogue class is missing.

But you turned the thread from a fun exercise in character design to an interrogation of my assumptions. Allow me to uninvite myself from your thread.

Next time, don't invite people when your aim is only to antagonize them.

If you only see an issue when feats are allowed, then the logical solution is to create a new feat that will give the Rogue the boost you want. Since feats aren't generally for a single class, it would also have to benefit a non-rogue that takes it. Perhaps it could give sneak attack damage to those without it, but a rogue gets to add extra dice if they take it?

How many extra dice would need to be added to the Rogue sneak attack to keep the Rogue competent if feats are allowed in your opinion? My inital thought for non-Rogues taking the feat would be their proficiency bonus minus one, so initially gives +1d6 and builds up to +5d6. If a rogue took it and got that in addition to the normal amount, would that be enough? (+15d6, instead of usual +10d6)

 

[CapnZapp]

Thank you RhaezDevan.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

Thank you RhaezDevan.

You're welcome. Just trying to help.

 

[Satyrn]

You can also build the 4E brutal rogue in 5E and tank around in full plate and/or a shield via MCing. Most players don't though as they're to wedded to the dex based rogue in light armor idea.

I just started playing a rogue. In a word trust I never thought I'd see, out looks like the optimal feat/ASI choice for me at 4th level is going to be . . . drumroll please . . . Moderately Armored.

I've got an odd Dexterity score, so the +1 Dex is as good as an ASI, and getting to use a shield and medium armor will be a huge boost to AC on a character who's gonna be in melee no matter what.

I never thought I'd find a good use for Moderately Armored. Oh and what's really weird, is that if I do take the feat, it's gonna make the third character in a row I've played where medium armor was the best choice.

Oh, and on topic: my 1st level rogue's DPR currently stands at well over 20. That's his Damage Per Attack, even.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As I said Rogues. Assassin's get more out of CBE, theives get more out of healer, masterminds green flame blade, and all benefit from sentinel.

5E rewards teamwork as well. Battle Master fighter granting attacks. Said fighter being Dex based gives up a bit of raw damage with feats but try it out when your whole party is Dex based and trained in stealth.

Much like any build you need to know how to build it and how to use it. The plinky plinky shortbow rogue kinda sucks.

Yep, and depending on campaign and build, feats like mage slayer and war caster can be really good for rogues.

I've played a swashbuckler with Magic Initiate, Mage Slayer, and Sentinel, and dominated in combat, by getting two SA attacks in most rounds, as well as combining Booming Blade with the level 9 swashbuckler ability to make someone chase me or have disadvantage on attacks, and lock down casters so they cannot run from me, can't cast, and can't keep a concentration spell up.

my current swashbuckler/bladesinger isn't as combat focused, but still stands up fine alongside the paladin, eldritch knight, and UA ranger in the group.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yep, and depending on campaign and build, feats like mage slayer and war caster can be really good for rogues.

I've played a swashbuckler with Magic Initiate, Mage Slayer, and Sentinel, and dominated in combat, by getting two SA attacks in most rounds, as well as combining Booming Blade with the level 9 swashbuckler ability to make someone chase me or have disadvantage on attacks, and lock down casters so they cannot run from me, can't cast, and can't keep a concentration spell up.

my current swashbuckler/bladesinger isn't as combat focused, but still stands up fine alongside the paladin, eldritch knight, and UA ranger in the group.

I think the main problem is people look at the abilites a rogue gets in 5E and think" that will make a good skirmisher" and then proceed to screw around with a short bow or throwing daggers or some other thing that deals very little damage. The mobility thing for a Rogue is an option, if you want to do lots of damage use it on occasion don't default to it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the main problem is people look at the abilites a rogue gets in 5E and think" that will make a good skirmisher" and then proceed to screw around with a short bow or throwing daggers or some other thing that deals very little damage. The mobility thing for a Rogue is an option, if you want to do lots of damage use it on occasion don't default to it.

Sometimes it’s the same folks who decry the superiority of ranged weapon builds in 5e!

But seriously, even a ranged rogue can work fine for damage, they just won’t be top tier.

And that’s fine! They are out of the park level good out of combat! It’s a 3 pillar game!

But! I’m all for options that to make an alternate rogue that IS built to be good out of combat but great in combat, and specifically to be great in combat via damage dealing.

Hell, maybe the option to drop Uncanny Dodge, and get a Backstab, where you add proficiency to damage on attacks that qualify for SA, and you maximize all damage dice when you crit with a Sneak Attack, in addition to the crit’s normal effect?

The idea of adding gobs more SA dice is just ludicrous to me, though. I can see a feat that adds 1/prof. bonus, and gives some other minor rogue benefit that lets non-rogues be a little rogueish AND makes rogues more lethal, but not rolling 15d6 dice at level 11, or whatever.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sometimes it’s the same folks who decry the superiority of ranged weapon builds in 5e!

But seriously, even a ranged rogue can work fine for damage, they just won’t be top tier.

And that’s fine! They are out of the park level good out of combat! It’s a 3 pillar game!

But! I’m all for options that to make an alternate rogue that IS built to be good out of combat but great in combat, and specifically to be great in combat via damage dealing.

Hell, maybe the option to drop Uncanny Dodge, and get a Backstab, where you add proficiency to damage on attacks that qualify for SA, and you maximize all damage dice when you crit with a Sneak Attack, in addition to the crit’s normal effect?

The idea of adding gobs more SA dice is just ludicrous to me, though. I can see a feat that adds 1/prof. bonus, and gives some other minor rogue benefit that lets non-rogues be a little rogueish AND makes rogues more lethal, but not rolling 15d6 dice at level 11, or whatever.

I allow 3pp feats and combined with a bit of system mastery you can easily make a 4E type Brutal Rogue. PHB only you can MC into rogue via fighter, have a high strength, tank around in full plate, pick up the shield master feat, knock people prone (advantage), and then sneak attack them and have expertise in athletics. Fighter level splash, dual wield grow some balls and get into melee combat especially since at level 6 you can reduce your damage by half.

Even if single classed you AC will only be 1-2 lower in a lot of cases than say a fighter and a handful of hit points. Only if healing is in short supply in your party should you default to spamming shortbow or whatever attacks. I wouldn't take sharpshooter as a Rogue, Crossbow Expert though especially on an assassin......

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I allow 3pp feats and combined with a bit of system mastery you can easily make a 4E type Brutal Rogue. PHB only you can MC into rogue via fighter, have a high strength, tank around i full plate, pick up the shelled master feat, knock people prone (advantage), and then sneak attack them and have expertise in athletics. Fighter level splash, dual wield grow some balls and get into melee combat especially since at level 6 you can reduce your damage by half.

Even if single classed you AC will only be 1-2 lower in a lot of cases than say a fighter and a handful of hit points. Only if healing is in short supply in your party should you default to spamming shortbow or whatever attacks. I wouldn't take sharpshooter as a Rogue, Crossbow Expert though especially on an assassin......

Swashbuckler/battle master is also really good, and I’d say that CBE is great for any rogue but swashbuckler. It’s a better bonus actionbattack than a dagger or a shortsword, works fine with a rapier in the main hand, and allows you to bop a second dude after face-stabbing the guy in front of you, even if dude 2 is out of your run+melee reach.

Sentinel is beautiful, in a group with multiple melee PCs, but especially with a tank with a mark ability of any kind. They attack you with disad, but you bop them if they attack the tank. I like leaving the enemy no good choices.