D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

[MENTION=60210]jaelis[/MENTION] #220 I disagree partially, [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] has at least found a solution for the Dilemma by houseruling it.

Let us formulate the key Points of the Topic one more time:

1. Long sword wielded 2 handed (versatile) is inferior to other 2 handed weapons especially for GWM, unless of course you are using a shield from time to time.

2. Elves and Rogues are per Default proficient in Longsword but both are often Dex heavy, which makes Finesse Qualities of 5E redundant/ in oposition to this proficiency.

So we want to resolve that as Close to RAW as possible:

For 1. i see no easy way out, other than those fluff houserules i did post in several postings above. (Remember fluff does not alter game mechanics)

For 2. and staying Close to RAW the only solution i see is give rogues and elves rapier proficiency instead of Long sword (ok rogues already got that).
For those arguing that i take away something by this, keep in mind that no elf warrior is barred from putting Points in strength and wield some heavy weapon instead (Although i normally houserule that he is, because an elf wielding a two handed axe looks like ... to my inner eye, but thats of no concern here)

Rogues who want to go a strength build otoh are propably much better of to select quarterstaff PM, so for these it' is not taking away anything serious also.

All the other Solutions which wanted to see 2 handed weapon Finesse heavy weapon master elf wizards wielding Longsword based purely on dex : this is much much further away from RAW than all the proposals i did make.

Ancalagon said:

The reason why this mattered is because of my understanding of the historical longsword -a weapon that can be used one handed but works better two handed - is *bang on* for the D&D 5e longsword (1d8 damage one handed, 1d10 two handed).

However, when you incorporate styles and feat... there is no "support" for the sword-master using a longsword two handed. Such a character is much better off using a greatsword, or a sword and shield. This bothers me, and I wish there was such support.

...I honestly don't care about the elven issue, *at all*.

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About the only build that longswords being able to switch is for those characters that switch regularly between bow and sword but want the flexibility to use a shield when they know they aren't going to need to use the bow.

Best way to me to fix it (assuming it needs fixing) would be some kind of feat that gives you a grapple attack as a bonus attack for advantage on your next attack. Gives you a reason to switch back and forth, while mimicking some historical fighting styles.

Coroc said:

1. Long sword wielded 2 handed (versatile) is inferior to other 2 handed weapons especially for GWM, unless of course you are using a shield from time to time.

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Personally I do not see this as any sort of problem. I think it would be ridiculous if a longsword wielded in 2H was as good as a greatsword.

I'm more sympathetic to the notion that a character with a longsword and no shield should have bettter options to use his free hand for grappling etc. I think a fighting style is the best way to address this.

2. Elves and Rogues are per Default proficient in Longsword but both are often Dex heavy, which makes Finesse Qualities of 5E redundant/ in oposition to this proficiency.

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I don't see how the finesse rules are in opposition to this proficiency. The two are separate questions and irrelevant to each other.

I can at least understand the complaint that granting elves and rogues longsword proficiency is a waste of space, since it provides little benefit most of the time. If that is the concern, just eliminate the proficiency.

If, as a separate issue, you happen to think elves should have special finesse fighting abilities, just give it to them as a house rule.

Coroc said:

Rogues who want to go a strength build otoh are propably much better of to select quarterstaff PM, so for these it' is not taking away anything serious also.

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I feel the quoted section highlights the various approaches.

I cant conceive that the classic (even STR) rogue would want to carry around a long stick. It would get in the way...

However, a specialist rogue, or unique pc, of course, why not?

Neither approach is better or worse, I just think this just show the different angles people discussing the issues are starting from.

Yaarel said:

Dexterity came later − and things stopped making sense.

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Ain't that the truth.

Ancalagon said:

The reason why this mattered is because of my understanding of the historical longsword -a weapon that can be used one handed but works better two handed - is *bang on* for the D&D 5e longsword (1d8 damage one handed, 1d10 two handed).

However, when you incorporate styles and feat... there is no "support" for the sword-master using a longsword two handed. Such a character is much better off using a greatsword, or a sword and shield. This bothers me, and I wish there was such support.

...I honestly don't care about the elven issue, *at all*.

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This is my position as well.

A Fighting Style and/or Feat specific to Versatile Weapons would be very welcome. For me at least. A bonus to grappling while one handed, and defense while two handed makes the most sense to me.

Coroc said:

[MENTION=60210]jaelis[/MENTION] #220 I disagree partially, [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] has at least found a solution for the Dilemma by houseruling it.

Let us formulate the key Points of the Topic one more time:

1. Long sword wielded 2 handed (versatile) is inferior to other 2 handed weapons especially for GWM, unless of course you are using a shield from time to time.

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I think that we've been discussing a new Fighting style to that end.

2. Elves and Rogues are per Default proficient in Longsword but both are often Dex heavy, which makes Finesse Qualities of 5E redundant/ in oposition to this proficiency.

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I removed the Finesse requirement of Sneak Attack. That solved the issue as far as I'm concerned.
Elves are proficient in 4 different weapons. Only one of which uses Strength. To me its a complete non-issue that some players might optimise their characters in a particular way that means that one of their racial weapons isn't the most advantageous.

Ancalagon said:

However, when you incorporate styles and feat... there is no "support" for the sword-master using a longsword two handed. Such a character is much better off using a greatsword, or a sword and shield. This bothers me, and I wish there was such support.

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If it is particularly the issue that you don't like the lack of feat support for 2H wielding of a versatile weapon, it seems like it would be pretty reasonable to let GWM work with any weapon held in two hands.

jaelis said:

If it is particularly the issue that you don't like the lack of feat support for 2H wielding of a versatile weapon, it seems like it would be pretty reasonable to let GWM work with any weapon held in two hands.

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I think this is reasonable and would go for it in my game.

If allowing Finesse-able Longswords, like some are suggesting, I would limit it to attacking with one Weapon wielded in two hands *using strength*

BookBarbarian said:

If allowing Finesse-able Longswords, like some are suggesting, I would limit it to attacking with one Weapon wielded in two hands *using strength*

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Well, unless they are elves, of course

What we really need is a thread about what an elf ought to be able to do with a katana

jaelis said:

If it is particularly the issue that you don't like the lack of feat support for 2H wielding of a versatile weapon, it seems like it would be pretty reasonable to let GWM work with any weapon held in two hands.

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This is reasonably good... but to me the holy grail would be a fighting style (esp for featless games)