D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

[jaelis]

The elf longsword problem has various alternative solutions.

OK seriously, why is this actually a problem? I don't personally think it is so useless as people say, but let's grant that it is, that no elf will ever willingly fight with a longsword. So what? Why do (some) people get so exercised about it?

And if you do need a solution, why not just remove the longsword proficiency, that seems by far the simplest answer.

 

[CapnZapp]

The elf longsword problem has various alternative solutions.

Remove the Dexterity bonus from elves.
• Allow elf players to choose which ability score the +2 goes to.
• Make all elves Charisma +2 and two Any +1, same as half elf.
• Create elf ancestry that is gishy and strong. Note, Basic D&D has Intelligence-Strength elf.

Remove weapons from race features.

Rethink the weapons.
• Add a ‘sword’ or ‘knightly sword’ to the standard weapons table, with the agile ‘finesse’ property. Assign it to high elf.
• Allow the ‘elegant’ ‘dancing’ elf fighting style to apply the finesse property even to longswords.

Remove the finesse property. All weapons require athletic accuracy via Strength.

Add the following to Elf Weapon Training: You may treat Elf Weapons as having the Finesse property.

Or, put otherwise:

Elf Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the Longsword, Shortsword, Shortbow, and Longbow. You treat Longswords as if they had the Finesse property.

 

[jaelis]

Add the following to Elf Weapon Training: You may treat Elf Weapons as having the Finesse property.

Or, put otherwise:

Elf Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the Longsword, Shortsword, Shortbow, and Longbow. You treat Longswords as if they had the Finesse property.

This of course makes elves slightly more powerful. Is that because you feel they are slightly too weak, RAW? Simply removing the proficiency would, by the logic that the proficiency is useless, leave the balance unchanged.

 

[Yaarel]

OK seriously, why is this actually a problem?

For me, the elf longsword problem interferes with world-building verisimilitude. I find it decisively unlikely for a Dex culture to revolve around a Strength weapon.



I hope the upcoming eladrin elf lacks any Dexterity bonus and is only Charisma Intelligence, and − therefore − has a culture that revolves around mind-enchanting bard, wizard, and psion themes.

 

[Yaarel]

This of course makes elves slightly more powerful. Is that because you feel they are slightly too weak, RAW? Simply removing the proficiency would, by the logic that the proficiency is useless, leave the balance unchanged.

Granting finesse to longswords gives negligible mechanical advantage. The rapier already allows for one-handed finesse 1d8 damage. And a versatile longsword if finesse comes at the cost of requiring both hands.

Granting finesse to longswords is strictly for flavor.

 

[jaelis]

Granting finesse to longswords gives negligible mechanical advantage. The rapier already allows for one-handed finesse 1d8 damage. And a versatile longsword if finesse comes at the cost of requiring both hands.

Granting finesse to longswords is strictly for flavor.

Not all elves have proficiency with rapiers; they will noticeably benefit. Removing the proficiency would fix the verisimilitude problem with (by assumption) no impact on balance.

 

[Yaarel]

Granting finesse to longswords gives negligible mechanical advantage. The rapier already allows for one-handed finesse 1d8 damage. And a versatile longsword if finesse comes at the cost of requiring both hands.

Granting finesse to longswords is strictly for flavor.

Plus D&D tradition (especially Forgotten Realms) depicts elves as having a unique, elegant, fighting style. Applying finesse to longswords merely actualizes this traditional distinctiveness into mechanics.

 

[Yaarel]

Not all elves have proficiency with rapiers; they will noticeably benefit. Removing the proficiency would fix the verisimilitude problem with (by assumption) no impact on balance.

Like who? Wizards who should stay away from rapier melee anyway?



By the way, I am comfortable with removing all weapon proficiencies from all races. It is a useless feature mechanically. Even if for some settings it can be flavorful, other settings do better without it.

 

[jaelis]

For me, the elf longsword problem interferes with world-building verisimilitude. I find it decisively unlikely for a Dex culture to revolve around a Strength weapon.

Just to address this point... if you look at current US culture, it is hard to see any adaptational reason for us to prize the ability to throw a ball well. But yet we seem to. Maybe longswords are like that for elves

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

For me, the elf longsword problem interferes with world-building verisimilitude. I find it decisively unlikely for a Dex culture to revolve around a Strength weapon.

Elf culture doesn't exactly 'revolve around' the longsword though. Its just one of the things that they learn over the course of growing up. Elves tend to be a little . . . slow at learning things, but a couple of decades should give enough time to pick up some traditional weapon proficiencies.
The majority of elves are never expected to pick up a longsword in need: its just a traditional art that they are taught. And as a traditional art, it may not take into account more modern innovations like rapiers that are only a few thousand years old or less.

I'd also argue that a slightly more graceful build than some other races hardly denotes a "Dex culture" either.

Plus D&D tradition (especially Forgotten Realms) depicts elves as having a unique, elegant, fighting style. Applying finesse to longswords merely actualizes this traditional distinctiveness into mechanics.

That style can already be represented by the average elf's slightly better unarmoured AC. D&D Finesse property is not required for a style to look elegant. Some media even seems to imply that professional elven warriors are also pretty athletic as well given the level of flourishing and prancing they are depicted as performing in combat.

Aren't elves also proficient in shortswords as well? That's your traditional choice for the optimising elf isn't it?