D&D 5E The best solution for longswords

[Hriston]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] super nice build, very versatile, and ..... it is not a powergamer build !!

Why? Well your elf wizard got cantrips in 5e - means unless your DM does not Feature a no Magic Zone every other session your elf wizard will use his cantrips rather than his longsword. Therefore any optimized powergamer build would put those Points for Str in Wis rather for better saving throw.

So if your wizard would use his longsword at my table instead of cantrips you might get Bonus XP for good RP from time to time

Of course, my wizard wants to stay out of melee, AC 12 and all, but sometimes melee comes to the wizard. I don't think there's a cantrip at first level that does as much damage as the 7.5 average damage he gets with his longsword though. If an opponent's wearing metal armor, I'd use shocking grasp instead.

 

[CapnZapp]

This of course makes elves slightly more powerful. Is that because you feel they are slightly too weak, RAW? Simply removing the proficiency would, by the logic that the proficiency is useless, leave the balance unchanged.

As somebody has already pointed out to you, congratulations on missing my point entirely

 

[CapnZapp]

Granting finesse to longswords gives negligible mechanical advantage. The rapier already allows for one-handed finesse 1d8 damage. And a versatile longsword if finesse comes at the cost of requiring both hands.

Granting finesse to longswords is strictly for flavor.

Thank you, good Sir.

 

[Yaarel]

Elf culture doesn't exactly 'revolve around' the longsword though. Its just one of the things that they learn over the course of growing up. Elves tend to be a little . . . slow at learning things, but a couple of decades should give enough time to pick up some traditional weapon proficiencies.
The majority of elves are never expected to pick up a longsword in need: its just a traditional art that they are taught. And as a traditional art, it may not take into account more modern innovations like rapiers that are only a few thousand years old or less.

I'd also argue that a slightly more graceful build than some other races hardly denotes a "Dex culture" either.

That style can already be represented by the average elf's slightly better unarmoured AC. D&D Finesse property is not required for a style to look elegant. Some media even seems to imply that professional elven warriors are also pretty athletic as well given the level of flourishing and prancing they are depicted as performing in combat.

Aren't elves also proficient in shortswords as well? That's your traditional choice for the optimising elf isn't it?

That hand waiving is unappealing to me.

The fact is, in formative D&D the key abilities for the elf were Intelligence and Strength and THEREFORE a culture of fighter/magic-user and THEREFORE competent with Strength weapons.

Dexterity came later − and things stopped making sense.

 

[Hriston]

Cultures function in the aggregate. Even a slight statistical advantage will be selected for, and organized around.

For those elves that gain a ‘superhuman’ +2 to the Dexterity curve, I find it implausible that their culture would center around a Strength weapon. From unlikely to impossible across thousands of years.

An aggregate is typically formed out of disparate elements. Elven society is no different. Some elves are more suited to be DEX-based combatants. Other elves are more suited to be STR-based combatants. It would be foolish of elven culture to expect the latter group to forgo the longsword's higher damage.

 

[jaelis]

As somebody has already pointed out to you, congratulations on missing my point entirely

So you want to gives elves a special ability with longswords for flavor? Part of your concept of elves is that they can wield swords more dexterously than other races?

 

[Ancalagon]

@Ancalogon #194 Ups sorry , i did not reread my old post, where i also meant overall length, but wrote bladelength. So you are right of course, although imho on the upper range 1m20 bladelength would not be to long for a late knightly longsword, but as we all agreed it would be overall length rather in most cases.

The reason why this mattered is because of my understanding of the historical longsword -a weapon that can be used one handed but works better two handed - is *bang on* for the D&D 5e longsword (1d8 damage one handed, 1d10 two handed).

However, when you incorporate styles and feat... there is no "support" for the sword-master using a longsword two handed. Such a character is much better off using a greatsword, or a sword and shield. This bothers me, and I wish there was such support.

...I honestly don't care about the elven issue, *at all*.

 

[Coroc]

@Ancalogon I can offer you one fluff solution for this: Put the historical tech equivalent to early middle Ages -> there is no greatsword available Best 2h weapon would be great axe in this case though.

Then there is my Renaissance equivalent (my current campaign) where almost every weapon is available (well except bows do not ask, it is just me needing a realistic tech epoch and bows via any sort of plate armor just does not penetrate) solution:

The Player can have: A katzbalger (shortsword) 1d6 p/s f, scimitar 1d6 s f, arming sword 1d8 s/p 1h only, rapier 1d8 p f, bastard sword 1d8/1d10 s/p and tada greatsword = longsword 2d6 s/p (additionally messer 1d6 slashing, Kriegsmesser (2-handed curvy) 2d4 slashing heavy)

I houserole secondary damage type for more realism, f means Finesse. I also houserule 2 weapon combat only allowable with rapier main gauche but it gives +1 AC on top.

On the elves: in that campaign they are npc only, Halfelves are a playable race.
If you imagine a Slim arming sword with a rapier like blade, now that can be a dedicated elf weapon. Or give them moonblades instead, some nice curved swords lets say 1d6 slashing for the smaller ones and 1d8 slashing for the larger. You can make them magical in addition. You can prohibit elves to wear Amor made from iron or steel in return or to use steel weapons. Every metal Thing must be made of mithril or forged moonlight or so.

That is the way i do i,t when i do not like something about the game in conjunction with the campaign i have in mind, then i discuss my plans a bit with the Players and i eventually Limit Equipment and Limit classes, and Limit spells, and Limit races, invent some fluffy rules, double check if everything is still balanced and i have fun.

 

[Yaarel]

So you want to gives elves a special ability with longswords for flavor? Part of your concept of elves is that they can wield swords more dexterously than other races?

I visualize the elf ‘sword dance’ as a whirling fighting style, including spins and flips, using the body as a counterweight to position the swing of the momentum of the outsized blade into precise angles.



I have mixed feelings, however. My abiding preference is to eliminate ‘acrobatics’ from Dexterity, making Strength responsible for all athletic accuracy, especially gymnastics for running, jumping, tumbling, climbing, falling, and balance. As such, finesse would be removed from the game, since Strength is responsible for all global coordination, from combat punches to swords.

Even so, as long as finesse exists as a mechanic, the elf sword fighting style merits it.

 

[jaelis]

I visualize the elf ‘sword dance’ as a whirling fighting style, including spins and flips, using the body as a counterweight to position the swing of the momentum of the outsized blade into precise angles.



I have mixed feelings, however. My abiding preference is to eliminate ‘acrobatics’ from Dexterity, making Strength responsible for all athletic accuracy, especially gymnastics for running, jumping, tumbling, climbing, falling, and balance. As such, finesse would be removed from the game, since Strength is responsible for all global coordination, from combat punches to swords.

Even so, as long as finesse exists as a mechanic, the elf sword fighting style merits it.

OK, so your point is that, independently of the fact that elves are granted longsword proficiency in the existing rules, you think elves should get a special finesse fighting ability, because that's how you picture elves. Which seems cool to me.

Mostly just trying to get straight whether you're talking about something you see as a defect in the existing rules, or something that you would implement to fit your own view of the dnd world. My impression is that it's more like the latter, which is not really subject to debate. (I would be a little more worried than you about the balance impact on non-martial classes, but its certainly nothing that would break the game.)