D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

What are your favorite 4E elements?


S'mon

Legend
I understand that a lot of people do want to play a fantasy novel, though, and that earlier editions of D&D weren't great at delivering the cinematic experience. For people who are looking to be The Designated Protagonist, I think 4E works better for that.

Yes, I love that about 4e, and for that reason I think it will always be in my suite of go-to RPGs. For the right job it's a fantastic tool. For regular 'D&D' there are other games, but 4e can do its particular thing exceptionally well: a campaign where the PCs are the designated protagonists and players & GM work together to create an epic tale, where the PCs have sufficient mechanical protection that they should not need any
plot/fudging protection; and if they do die it tends to be in dramatically satisfying and climactic ways.

(Obviously, trying to use 4e for a dungeon-crawling picaresque is the exact opposite of this.)
 

log in or register to remove this ad


pemerton

Legend
That seems more like an RP thing

<snip>

These are things that the DM should already know. It shouldn't even require much consideration, because most of the time it should be obvious (to the DM).
A further comment on this: I think it affirms my comment, in post 142 upthread, that "it is very hard to make much headway in 2nd ed AD&D without the GM having an overwhelming influence on the shape of events."
 

S'mon

Legend
In Tolkien, the economy of the Shire is a mystery to me. They live surrounded by wolf and goblin-infested wilderness, and seem to have no mines of their own, so where do they get all their metal from? Likewise the elves of Lorien, or the dwarves of Erebor - what do they eat?

I quickly realised Tolkien was a terrible worldbuilder when I started researching the history of Arnor and Osgiliath - the timeline makes no sense, in the backstory he had them both fall far too early on, with too long a stretch of time prior to Lord of the Rings. I just have to assume the official timeline is in error, probably a construct like the first 500 years of official Roman history, and that they fell hundreds rather than thousands of years ago.

As far as the Shire goes, well Bree seems to be a trade centre, halfling merchants could go west from there to the Shire. Dwarves could bring metal from the Blue Mountains. But it is pretty weak I agree, actually weaker
than I see in most FRPG settings, or indeed in contemporary '30s-'60s swords & sorcery - Hyborea and Nehwon don't tend to raise the same issues. Same issue with Minas Tirith and where the food comes from.
 

The most contentious case is one that you haven't covered: the GM hasn't decided whether there are giants or orcs in a particular region, makes the decision based on the level of the party, and also decides on an ingame reason for the giants to be there (or decides that there is such a reason, although may not yet have decided what it is).
That just sounds like incredibly poor world-design. Even if the DM doesn't decide everything in the world before the campaign starts, and just assumes that the non-immediate regions will take care of themselves, those things really should be settled long before the party gets anywhere near them.

So I guess I can't answer that question because it's not one that makes any sense to me. Similar to the rope thing, it's just so far outside of my realm of experience that I can't even take it into consideration.

In the Conan novel Hour of the Dragon, Zenobia helps Conan to escape because she saw him in the street once and fell in love with him. How does the GM decide if an NPC has become smitten with a PC and decides to come forward in the PC's hour of need?
Honestly, how likely is that event? Would it have happened, if he was not the protagonist? A lot of the DM's job, in that mode of thought, just goes down to saying that the thing which happens is the thing which is most likely to happen. If I was playing in a campaign, and an NPC introduced herself to me under those circumstances, then I would probably roll my eyes at the sheer improbability of it.
 

A further comment on this: I think it affirms my comment, in post 142 upthread, that "it is very hard to make much headway in 2nd ed AD&D without the GM having an overwhelming influence on the shape of events."
Only in as much as the DM plays all of the NPCs, and each player only has one (or a few) characters.

Most of that is off-screen, though. Since the camera is focused on the PCs, and the DM doesn't control them in any way, there's not a lot of direct impact on the course of events.
 

As far as the Shire goes, well Bree seems to be a trade centre, halfling merchants could go west from there to the Shire. Dwarves could bring metal from the Blue Mountains.
That's roughly what I assumed, although I figured there would be more humans involved as an intermediary. All of the pieces are there, though, so I don't feel the need to look too closely at it.
 

pemerton

Legend
I quickly realised Tolkien was a terrible worldbuilder
I don't disagree with any of your substantive comments - the timelines in Middle Earth are ridiculous when compared to timelines for comparable cultures in real life - but don't you think there is something a little odd about the quoted sentence? (A bit like [MENTION=87576]Scrivener of Doom[/MENTION] saying Gygax was a terrible game designer. It comes out oddly.)

What fantasy world has inspired more atlases, bestiaries, and emulators than Middle Earth? What fantasy world has been more spectacularly and convincingly visually realised (in pictures, and then in moving pictures by Peter Jackson)? It's unparalleled, and the fact that its economics don't make sense doesn't change that.

(On Minas Tirith's food - notionally there are farms in Lebennin and the rest of that coastal region south of the White Mountains.)
 
Last edited:

pemerton

Legend
Only in as much as the DM plays all of the NPCs, and each player only has one (or a few) characters.

Most of that is off-screen, though. Since the camera is focused on the PCs, and the DM doesn't control them in any way, there's not a lot of direct impact on the course of events.
This is still affirming my comment that, in this style, the GM has an overwhelming influence on the shape of events!

The GM does not control the PCs, but s/he controls everything around them. Especially in 2nd ed AD&D, when the game mechanics don't extend very much beyond killing things, the GM's choices about how NPCs act and react will utterly shape what happens.
 

pemerton

Legend
That just sounds like incredibly poor world-design. Even if the DM doesn't decide everything in the world before the campaign starts, and just assumes that the non-immediate regions will take care of themselves, those things really should be settled long before the party gets anywhere near them.

So I guess I can't answer that question because it's not one that makes any sense to me. Similar to the rope thing, it's just so far outside of my realm of experience that I can't even take it into consideration.
Yet whole playstyles are based around it. Here is a link to an actual play report from one of my 4e sessions. The bit I want to focus on is towards the end - in the session it occurred after the PCs had defeated the hobgoblin forces (including a captive chimera) that were attacking the tower they were exploring, and had then defeated the dragon, Calastryx, that had come to take revenge for the death of its chimera child:

the two arcanists and the ranger remained at the base of the tower. The sorcerer did some sort of awareness check (I can't remember exactly what) and I told him that he could feel chaos energies in the area, coming out of the Bloodtower (leaking through the teleportation portal) and also leeching out of the dead body of the dragon. The PCs decided to try and harness this energy, and channel into an item so as to enchant it. There was then some discussion about what items they might try for, and how they might go about it. I had brought my recently acquired copy of Heroes of the Elemental Chaos to the session, and showed the player of the sorcerer the Gift of Flame alternative reward. He liked the look of it, and without consulting the other players had his PC leap up onto Calastryx's body and cast a Cyclonic Vortex (? 13th level sorcerer encounter power) to summon the chaotic energies to him.

The two other PCs - the wizard and the ranger - just looked on with shock and a degree of dismay, as he had done something similar earlier that day on the Elemental Chaos which had caused a bit of mayhem, and the player weren't very surprised when I mentioned they could see something flying from the hills towards them. At first they looked like bats, but as they got closer it was clear they were too big to be bats - they were actually 4 mooncalves​

The chaos energies were invented by me in response to the player's check (the Bloodtower contained a portal to the Elemental Chaos, and Calastryx was a four-headed fire drake). The mooncalves were, in the fiction, attracted by the concentration of chaotic energy - but at the table they turned up because I wanted something to be summoned in response to the player's hijinks, and flipping through my new monster book (MV2) turned up the mooncalves as a good option.

By your definition there is no metagaming here, as there is an ingame reason for the mooncalves to turn up. By my definition the whole thing is metagaming - it's what [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] calls "Pemertonian scene-framing"! Namely, as GM I frame the PCs into some sort of crisis or challenge in response to the resolution of the previous scene, also having regard to the expressed or implied interests of the players as demonstrated through their play of their PCs.

Honestly, how likely is that event? Would it have happened, if he was not the protagonist? A lot of the DM's job, in that mode of thought, just goes down to saying that the thing which happens is the thing which is most likely to happen. If I was playing in a campaign, and an NPC introduced herself to me under those circumstances, then I would probably roll my eyes at the sheer improbability of it.
The thing is, "most likely" is no more self-executing than "obvious". It is still a series of events driven by the GM, as I described upthread.

It also produces a Spartan world - in this case a world that is metaphorically Spartan, in that the number of social and emotional attachments to the PCs is far less than it would be in the real world.

Just the other day (probably a fortnight or so ago) a new colleague at work was in my office crying. I've known her for less than two months, and have probably spent fewer than 6 hours in her company. But she was upset by something that had happened to her, and I was the person she happened to know who was around for her to talk to.

How likely is this? I don't know - but I can say it's never happened to me before. But the world is full of unlikely occurrences, and the emotional lives of human beings aren't easily predicted.

Tying this back to RPGing - I'm not really interested in a GM making covert decisions under the guise of what's "likely" or "obvious". I'd much rather a GM be upfront about making choices, and that those choices be guided by a deliberate agenda of putting the players in the hot seat!

(An alternative, when it comes to meeting NPCs, is to have player-side mechanics. In my Burning Wheel game, we have had two Circles checks in five sessions. The first - an attempt to make contact with a fellow cabal member who might have some work for a couple of sorcerers down on their luck - failed, and so the cabal member sent a thug instead to run the PCs out of town. The second - made while the PCs were floating on wreckage after their ship had burned to the waterline after encountering a ghost ship - succeeded, and so the PCs - who included an elven princess - were rescued by an elven sea captain who was looking for the princess after she had failed to arrive in Greyhawk as scheduled. A lucky event - but the real world contains lucky and unlucky eventualities, as well as likely ones!)
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top