D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Imaro

Legend
How does 5e handle this? Do they talk about fantastic terrain?

5e handles this type of thing with specific examples of hazards and effects that have a set DC. Nothing, so far as I've seen reading through the DMG, scales based on level. Again this means that if my character's Perception is high enough (irregardless of his level) he won't be surprised by an ether cyclone on the Ethereal Plane.
 

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As I said, NPCs used PC rules to determine their abilities, except in situations where the in-game reality diverged. An orcish shaman might not have the same spell access as a PC priest, but only in as much as a shaman is actually different from a priest within the world.
My take on that is they are only different in as much as there are different traditions within humanoid tribes. The shaman/witch doctor rules reflect an easy way to deal with that which is far simpler than making up some sort of 'NPC Class' that adds lots of extraneous detail. Any given specific shaman might well have different spells than those listed, possibly reflecting some individual idiosyncrasy. 4e, and 5e AFAICT instead prefer to just stick to the stat block approach where each unique individual creature has its own stat block which might potentially contain anything. Of course 4e has a 'goblin hexer' stat block that represents a pretty typical shaman of Maglubiyet. I suspect the 5e MM has a similar one. In 4e at least, you might present said character as a minion at high levels, though truthfully its unlikely to be worthwhile.

As I said, the game mechanics reflect the in-game reality. Ogres could have better AC by wearing better armor, because that's how armor works within the world, as confirmed by the rules for when a PC wears armor.
The 4e monster rules also provide for this, but in general the advice is to level up monsters. The theory being that all the stats on monsters are generalizations, and better armored ogres are no doubt also better trained, equipped lead, motivated, etc and thus worth being considered higher level than unarmored ogres. The increase in AC is 'caused by wearing heavier armor', but its all part of a coherent whole. You wouldn't describe a level 15 ogre and a level 9 ogre in the same way.

Until 4E came around, it wasn't something worth talking about, because it was just one of those obvious things that didn't need to be said. It wasn't a particular principle of D&D, because it was such a fundamental assumption of all RPGs that there was never any reason to question it. Kind of like how gravity affects everything, all the time, and you don't usually need to mention it unless it changes suddenly.
Again, I strongly reject that there is any principle that game rules correspond to 'reality' in the games in question. This is clearly not the case in many games, even early ones, such as T&T, or maybe a famous example would be 'Toon' which doesn't HAVE rules for its game world at all. It just wasn't a question in D&D, as the style of game is GM-Centered.

Hit Points don't exist, but the realities of the game world which are reflected in the Hit Point mechanic do exist, objectively. It is objectively true that a given character possesses certain characteristics of luck, skill, toughness, and whatever else. It is a true fact of the game world that it takes an average of X number of 'hits' from Y weapon before a given character will be unable to continue fighting, for whatever definition of 'hit' you choose to employ. Or to use a less abstract example, it is a true fact of the world that some people can survive a fall from any height without dying. Hit Points reflect a real, objectively measurable phenomenon.
No, not really. A given creature for instance might be much less capable against some opponents because its divine favor doesn't work against them (maybe they're more favored by the same god). This could for instance explain how wizards tame creatures that could easily kill them by simple mechanical extrapolation. Nor is it necessarily true that people can survive certain falls. PCs survive certain falls because the DM uses consistent rules to cover them, due to the fact that the players will feel helpless if he makes arbitrary rulings (amongst other reasons).

Mostly though, we don't know the recipe for hit points, so all those factors that go into them, we don't actually have any way to know what they are, or if 2 creatures have the same hit points for the same reason, or even if the same creature's hit points always represent the same thing. A GM would be perfectly free to say that a given creature died because its hit points are all luck and its not its lucky day today, so a fall killed it, and another creature survived the same fall with the same damage and hit points because all its hit points come from toughness.

Definitions are useful in as far as they allow meaningful discussion and inform decision-making. I consider the objective reality - the consistent-stat-representation-requirement - to be such a fundamental rule of RPGs that I would not consider games which violate that rule to still be in the same category of game. If someone refers to something as an RPG, then that word carries a lot of meaning to me, and I would be disappointed to later find out that it was this other thing - that it didn't follow the basic rules for what makes an RPG.
Yes, definitions are crucial for communications, and when you use one so idiosyncratic that I doubt any other poster on this or any other forum I regularly post on would agree with yours, then you will probably have communications problems.

I would also point out that your definition is IMNSHO political, not rhetorical. You don't like 4e so you literally want to define it out of existence. This is a political act, not any sort of an attempt to communicate clearly, and trying to plead otherwise is disingenuous.

You can shift definitions around in any way that promotes decision-making and allows for discussion. Some people don't consider StarCraft or Magic to be real sports. Some people don't consider RPGs to be real games. By sticking with my definition, I'm trying to draw awareness to this phenomenon, and to get people to understand just how big of a deal it actually is. This is a huge deal. It's not something that should be changed without significant consideration. Breaking this rule will turn away a significant portion of the player base.

Well, again, you're betraying the purely political nature of your 'definition'. Nobody else agrees with it, its offensive to some, and you'll most certainly find the grade of discussion you will have when you invoke said nonsense to be lower than if you don't.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There are differences which can be justified, and differences which cannot be justified. A High-Priest should be different from a Cleric in ways that reflect the actual differences between those individuals within the game world. The High-Priest probably has some different powers.
Try to remember that they don't actually exist, please. ;)

But, sure, say the concept of the Cleric is that he's an itinerant individual seeking secret lore and magic to increase his personal power, he serves Vecna because doing so gets him secrets and power.

The EHP, OTOH, has been groomed since birth to lead his secret Cult. Like his father and grandfather before him, he has the persona of a wealthy, effete nobleman, and a great deal of political influence - but he's never had to lift a finger a day in his life - and, like them, has received terrible magic powers from Vecna in return for the souls & secrets of his cultists & their victims.

Might be very different characters, even if they both cast up to 7th level divine spells granted to them by the same deity.

It doesn't justify using different formulas for attack bonus or Hit Points or defenses.
I think the above example does exactly that.

Philosophy is irrelevant. Science is what matters, and scientists are practically unanimous in their understanding of physical laws on the scale that the game represents.
Tell you what, find a scientist who can send a probe to Greyhawk and prove that the nature of it's physical 'reality' conforms to those physical laws. Maybe he could figure out the Rain of Colorless Fire for them, while he's at it.
 

I would also point out that your definition is IMNSHO political, not rhetorical. You don't like 4e so you literally want to define it out of existence. This is a political act, not any sort of an attempt to communicate clearly, and trying to plead otherwise is disingenuous.
I have nothing against 4E. I just don't consider it to be an RPG, in the traditional sense. It had a lot of good ideas, but in getting there, they had to violate some important rules of RPG design. Maybe they didn't even know that they were doing it, at the time.

Maybe they knew what they were doing, and consciously chose to slaughter this sacred cow, only to find out that it was more important than they thought it was. Maybe they didn't realize how important those rules were until so many people left for another game. The important thing is that they later realized their mistake, and addressed it with 5E.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
One interesting thing 4e did was show concrete progress. Not in skill DCs, of course, but in monster categories.

At PC level 4, an Ogre might be a Solo or an Elite.

At PC level 8, an Ogre might be a normal monster.

At PC level 12, an Ogre might be a Minion -- you're so awesome, you can drop an Ogre with a single hit.

That can be viewed as a "progress indicator" for PC prowess.

Sure, a level-appropriate Elite is always going to be a challenge -- but from the standpoint of the fiction, you don't need to see it as an Elite. Instead, you can see it as an Ogre, and you can see that in the fiction, the PCs make a lot of progress relative to Ogres.

- - -

That aside, it's been 100 pages, and nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer to the OP's original question:

OP said:
Why does 5E SUCK?

It's because 5e is your mother.

I hope that clears everything up.
 

tyrlaan

Explorer
I have nothing against 4E. I just don't consider it to be an RPG, in the traditional sense.

I struggle to consider the "I have nothing against 4e" part of your statement remotely genuine.

For starters, you follow up with stating you don't consider it's an RPG. Guess what? It is. I realize you have some very specific definitions of what an RPG should be, but you are not the person who sets the world standard definition of what constitutes and RPG. In turn, this means your claim that it's not an RPG can't be used objectively at all.

So if you want to consider it a non-RPG in your eyes, that's fantastic, but you don't have the authority to decide that for others. But that's exactly what you try to do here...

Definitions are useful in as far as they allow meaningful discussion and inform decision-making. I consider the objective reality - the consistent-stat-representation-requirement - to be such a fundamental rule of RPGs that I would not consider games which violate that rule to still be in the same category of game. If someone refers to something as an RPG, then that word carries a lot of meaning to me, and I would be disappointed to later find out that it was this other thing - that it didn't follow the basic rules for what makes an RPG.

You can shift definitions around in any way that promotes decision-making and allows for discussion. Some people don't consider StarCraft or Magic to be real sports. Some people don't consider RPGs to be real games. By sticking with my definition, I'm trying to draw awareness to this phenomenon, and to get people to understand just how big of a deal it actually is. This is a huge deal. It's not something that should be changed without significant consideration. Breaking this rule will turn away a significant portion of the player base.

I'd also like to point out that your second paragraph there explains in crystal clarity that you are doing this to not so subtly get people in line with your assessment of the game.


I ask you to please stop passing off your opinion as fact. You recently did the same over MHRPG and now you're doing it with 4e, and it is not cool on many levels.

But the 4E debate is history as far as I am concerned.

This right here is what I feel you need to embrace. It's over, I implore you to let it go and find something better to do with your stones than casting them at 4e.
 

BryonD

Hero
This right here is what I feel you need to embrace. It's over, I implore you to let it go and find something better to do with your stones than casting them at 4e.
To be clear, the 4Evar faction could help a lot by stopping with the pot stirring.
 

I struggle to consider the "I have nothing against 4e" part of your statement remotely genuine.
I like plenty of games that aren't traditional RPGs. They just scratch a different sort of itch. The feeling I get from 4E is a lot like what I get from playing a Final Fantasy game, and that's not a bad thing at all. When I go into it with that sort of mind-set, it's an enjoyable experience.
 

bert1000

First Post
In some places 4e presents things like those fantastic terrains where they are useful at all levels. Then if there's a DC they say "set it via the chart", but I don't see any indication they intend that to be a dynamic scaling, the section is encounter DESIGN, not what to do at the table during play.

As I said before, I would presume they looked at it and said "gosh, with infinite page count we'd have Red Cave Slime, Orange Cave Slime, Yellow Cave Slime, Green Cave Slime, Blue Cave Slime, Indigo Cave Slime, and Violet Cave Slime with increasing DCs, but we got a page limit here. Instead they provide a pretty long list of terrains, with 'use appropriate DC' to keep it sane.

In contrast, later on, they list a LARGE number of types of traps, each one built to a specific level and with level-appropriate descriptions. I would assume they considered traps to be more significant than fantastic terrain.

Yep, those are design options not some kind of mutating hazard that morphs IN GAME to challenge PCs.

Should 4e have been more explicit about this? Sounds like Yes. But if one interpretation leads to nonsense, and the other to a coherent system, why would you choose the former?
 

Hussar

Legend
I like plenty of games that aren't traditional RPGs. They just scratch a different sort of itch. The feeling I get from 4E is a lot like what I get from playing a Final Fantasy game, and that's not a bad thing at all. When I go into it with that sort of mind-set, it's an enjoyable experience.

Just to be clear, because you've changed your terminology here, do you consider 4e to be not an RPG or not a traditional RPG?

And, do you think that your feelings are unique to you, or are part of the system?
 

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