Ha, OK. Apologies
But it's still not superhelpful. When it's all new it's hard to know where the line is between thinking and overthinking! And no one wants an unthinking DM! 
D&D 5E LMoP - Goblin Ambush - Stealth and Surprise
Ha, OK. Apologies
But it's still not superhelpful. When it's all new it's hard to know where the line is between thinking and overthinking! And no one wants an unthinking DM! Rya.Reisender
Explorer
Well, in that case, let me give you the two important bullet points:
1. Surprise can only happen if the whole group is being stealthy
2. Hidden is not a status change, but a "per character relation", consequently you can only hide from something you are aware of
These alone are sufficient to know why the goblins cannot be ambushed. The adventure basically starts with the ambush scenario. It only gives players a single turn to notice the goblins before they attack. Even if they notice the goblins, they won't get another turn to hide from them, because at that point, the goblins are already aware of a threat and attack.
Now you can push that into complexity by discussing it more in detail:
- What if just one person is stealthy and scouts ahead? --> This is not handled in the rules at all, so DM has decide what to do about that. I personally would allow the group to split up so only some need to win the stealth roll, but everybody not rolling stealth cannot join the battle on round 1. But the DM might just as well decide that it's either all roll stealth or none.
- Should I really go by the stealth rules here? --> If you do, your players will just always be stealthy to get a chance at a surprise attack. It will be annoying to have your players constantly say "We walk around the corner... but stealthily!" just so they avoid the DM going "Haha, you didn't say stealthily, now you don't gain the chance for a surprise attack!". So might as well default to always rolling stealth at the beginning of every battle. I personally find that too annoying, though. I'd leaning towards only allowing surprise in specific situations the adventure path handles. In that case I do quite some preparation as DM by making players first aware of a threat and then intentionally telling them they haven't been noticed yet and asking them how they want to approach that threat. Is that in the rules? Only somewhat by saying "The DM determines surprise" and referring to "In specific situations surprise can happen".
- Is there any benefit to scouting stealthily ahead? --> Well yes, also not clearly written in the rules, but one can assume that if the goblins noticed 3 threats but not the 4th because it won the stealth roll, then they wouldn't be aware of the presence of that 4th person until it acts. But again, it depends on the DM. Other DMs might argue that you can't hide out-of-combat at all because the Hide Action is a combat action. And again a good reason to rule like that is again preventing the rogue from constantly telling you he is being stealthy. On the other hand the DM has full control over who to attack in the first place, so even if we don't assume the rogue is "Hidden", could make the goblins attack the other targets reasoning that they just attack the most obvious threat in the first 6 seconds without looking much around for more.
So yeah it will also get confusing the moment you try to understand the stealth rules "RAW". So it's better not to try to figure out how they are actually meant and rather try to figure what the most fun for your group is. And that's best done by talking with them rather than reading the rules thoroughly.
1. Surprise can only happen if the whole group is being stealthy
2. Hidden is not a status change, but a "per character relation", consequently you can only hide from something you are aware of
These alone are sufficient to know why the goblins cannot be ambushed. The adventure basically starts with the ambush scenario. It only gives players a single turn to notice the goblins before they attack. Even if they notice the goblins, they won't get another turn to hide from them, because at that point, the goblins are already aware of a threat and attack.
Now you can push that into complexity by discussing it more in detail:
- What if just one person is stealthy and scouts ahead? --> This is not handled in the rules at all, so DM has decide what to do about that. I personally would allow the group to split up so only some need to win the stealth roll, but everybody not rolling stealth cannot join the battle on round 1. But the DM might just as well decide that it's either all roll stealth or none.
- Should I really go by the stealth rules here? --> If you do, your players will just always be stealthy to get a chance at a surprise attack. It will be annoying to have your players constantly say "We walk around the corner... but stealthily!" just so they avoid the DM going "Haha, you didn't say stealthily, now you don't gain the chance for a surprise attack!". So might as well default to always rolling stealth at the beginning of every battle. I personally find that too annoying, though. I'd leaning towards only allowing surprise in specific situations the adventure path handles. In that case I do quite some preparation as DM by making players first aware of a threat and then intentionally telling them they haven't been noticed yet and asking them how they want to approach that threat. Is that in the rules? Only somewhat by saying "The DM determines surprise" and referring to "In specific situations surprise can happen".
- Is there any benefit to scouting stealthily ahead? --> Well yes, also not clearly written in the rules, but one can assume that if the goblins noticed 3 threats but not the 4th because it won the stealth roll, then they wouldn't be aware of the presence of that 4th person until it acts. But again, it depends on the DM. Other DMs might argue that you can't hide out-of-combat at all because the Hide Action is a combat action. And again a good reason to rule like that is again preventing the rogue from constantly telling you he is being stealthy. On the other hand the DM has full control over who to attack in the first place, so even if we don't assume the rogue is "Hidden", could make the goblins attack the other targets reasoning that they just attack the most obvious threat in the first 6 seconds without looking much around for more.
So yeah it will also get confusing the moment you try to understand the stealth rules "RAW". So it's better not to try to figure out how they are actually meant and rather try to figure what the most fun for your group is. And that's best done by talking with them rather than reading the rules thoroughly.
I guess the fact that the ambush is so telegraphed by the dead horses is why, if the action doesn't start right away, PCs want to do some sneaking. At my table the goblins launched a volley at the wagon and the rogue slipped into the woods during the ensuing chaos. It turned into a fun encounter but only because I had the goblins whiff their surprise round (and it made for a more cinematic start to the adventure).
So yeah run it in a way that suits your table. But a starter adventure shouldn't cause so much confusion with the first encounter. Or it should provide more hand holding!
So yeah run it in a way that suits your table. But a starter adventure shouldn't cause so much confusion with the first encounter. Or it should provide more hand holding!
If I'm being honest, this isn't helping me to "not overthink it."
The Goblin Ambush does not start with "roll initiative." Why are we talking in "turns" before the encounter actually begins? Are there "turns" outside of combat?
The book suggests the characters are free to explore the area, and the book also suggests, to me, that only when they "inspect the scene closer," the encounter is triggered and everyone rolls initiative.
The way it was written, implied to me that they've been traveling for a day and a half or so, and the Goblin Ambush section should be imagined as its own "encounter map" as it were. Once there, the goblins have already seen you. Therefore, they can't be surprised.
And as for this, the problem was that it was a group I didn't know well. Part of the house rules, that they agreed to, were that if there was a disagreement about a rule, the DM would make a final ruling and the game would move on, and we would discuss it out of session (which is why I'm here now, because this will inevitably come up again). Although this was agreed to, another player was essentially controlling the other player's halfling and telling them to "stealth, roll for stealth, ok now hide!" sort of thing. The not-halfling-rogue player, would not continue playing "unless 'they' got to stealth and a bonus hide action" because "he couldn't have fun if we weren't playing by the rules." (He, too, had never played, and his understanding of these things was coming solely from watching Roll20 DND sessions--he had never read the PHB at all). So as a new DM it put me on the spot very suddenly and in a really awkward position, where everyone would have been happy to move on--except one player. So I am trying to learn this rule properly/in a way that I can apply it unambiguously to the players. "The characters cannot surprise the goblins BECAUSE...." would have been super helpful from the book.
I think this is key. The players shouldn't just be "I'm going to stealth! I got a 20! *Poof* i'm stealthed and disappeared and have advantage!" -- they need to describe what they want to do, and only if it's reasonable/makes sense, should the DM say "Ok, roll for..."... ?
Rya.Reisender
Explorer
That why it specifically states that the goblins can't be surprised and even explains how to determine if the PCs are surprised.
Hmm, guess there don't have to be. For me there are rounds outside combat too, except they have longer intervals (e.g. 1 minute per round in dungeons as suggested by the rules). A round basically consists of me asking the players what they want to do, they telling me and then me determining what happens.
I guess that's true, though I never had the situation where none of the PCs wanted to approach the bodies. What do they want to do otherwise?
In any case at the point of the goblin ambush the goblins have already spotted you. Even if the PCs now decide to explore, the goblins will know they are there and they can't hide from the goblins because they don't know the goblins are there.
If the goblins are spotted, it's very likely they attack even if no PC approaches the dead horses.
DM can decide, so yeah, just say they aren't surprised. You don't need to give your players a reason why.
Stop this at the root. You don't need to tolerate malicious player behavior.
I still suggest to keep it at "DM determines surprise" instead of establishing a fixed rule.
If your players absolutely want it, tell them they all need to be stealthy in order for surprise to work. All players roll stealth at the start of combat, if all results are higher than the passive perception of a creature then that creature is surprised. Then you have a clear rule, but it will result in what I described above.
Uller
Adventurer
I typically allow players to make out of character suggestions to each other. But there is a line. I'd have lookes at the player telling the rogue player what to do that his player is too far away to communicate wih the rogue without shouting and thatwpuld surely ruin his stealth attempts.
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Sent from my SCH-I535 using EN World mobile app
Springheel
First Post
Being surprised and getting advantage are two different things. I would say it's possible for the goblins to NOT be surprised (because they see the wagon and are expecting a fight) and still give the rogue advantage from attacking unseen if he manages to successfully: 1. hide from the goblins 2. see the goblins, who are hiding themselves 3. attack without giving away his position (missile only, since the goblins aren't distracted). Not easy, but possible.
jasper
Rotten DM
Ok Osirisx let see if I got all your problems and concerns down.
All players are new, and you using the started module. No problem here but like the movies, sometimes modules do things which break the normal rules. This was a hot (big explosions and thousands of arrows in the air) opening. The Lost Mine is one such module. Tell your players the set up for encounter x sucks please just roll with as all of you are learning the system.
Rogue roll Nat 30 on her stealth roll and Nat 30 on her hide. Who is surprise? Take your head, place module on table, pound your head into table thru module. Players will always do things that module writers don’t think of. Here how I would rule it, unless MS. Rogue yelled out “ambush”. Give rogue advantage (2 d20s take the better) on init. Choose one goblin (name him BOB) give him disadvantage ( 2 d20s take the worse). Everyone roll initiative. The rogue is not surprise, the goblins are not surprise, the other PCS and Bob are surprise. During the first round the goblins will not shoot at the rogue, the rogue shoots at whomever she wants, Bob and the PC exchange looks of confusion.
Thumbs up on …Part of the house rules, that they agreed to, were that if there was a disagreement about a rule, the DM would make a final ruling and the game would move on, and we would discuss it out of session….. I do this too. And if I made a mistake, I tell my gamers next session. But I don’t recon last week session. Well except if a PC died by my mistake.
Major Problem. …player was essentially controlling the other player's Halfling and telling them to "stealth, roll for stealth, ok now hide!" sort of thing. The not-Halfling-rogue player, would not continue playing "unless 'they' got to stealth and a bonus hide action" because "he couldn't have fun if we weren't playing by the rules…….. You have problem player here. 1. He was bill bossy about telling other people what to do. 2. He wanted to take his ball and go home. A rolled up newspaper on the nose works on these sad puppies. Or nicely explain to him to play his own pc or go home.
Surprise from the SRD page 40
Combat Step by Step 1. Determine surprise. The GM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
Under the surprise section
The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
So sometimes the DM determines if the pc are surprise, sometimes the dice do.
All players are new, and you using the started module. No problem here but like the movies, sometimes modules do things which break the normal rules. This was a hot (big explosions and thousands of arrows in the air) opening. The Lost Mine is one such module. Tell your players the set up for encounter x sucks please just roll with as all of you are learning the system.
Rogue roll Nat 30 on her stealth roll and Nat 30 on her hide. Who is surprise? Take your head, place module on table, pound your head into table thru module. Players will always do things that module writers don’t think of. Here how I would rule it, unless MS. Rogue yelled out “ambush”. Give rogue advantage (2 d20s take the better) on init. Choose one goblin (name him BOB) give him disadvantage ( 2 d20s take the worse). Everyone roll initiative. The rogue is not surprise, the goblins are not surprise, the other PCS and Bob are surprise. During the first round the goblins will not shoot at the rogue, the rogue shoots at whomever she wants, Bob and the PC exchange looks of confusion.
Thumbs up on …Part of the house rules, that they agreed to, were that if there was a disagreement about a rule, the DM would make a final ruling and the game would move on, and we would discuss it out of session….. I do this too. And if I made a mistake, I tell my gamers next session. But I don’t recon last week session. Well except if a PC died by my mistake.
Major Problem. …player was essentially controlling the other player's Halfling and telling them to "stealth, roll for stealth, ok now hide!" sort of thing. The not-Halfling-rogue player, would not continue playing "unless 'they' got to stealth and a bonus hide action" because "he couldn't have fun if we weren't playing by the rules…….. You have problem player here. 1. He was bill bossy about telling other people what to do. 2. He wanted to take his ball and go home. A rolled up newspaper on the nose works on these sad puppies. Or nicely explain to him to play his own pc or go home.
Surprise from the SRD page 40
Combat Step by Step 1. Determine surprise. The GM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
Under the surprise section
The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
So sometimes the DM determines if the pc are surprise, sometimes the dice do.
