D&D 5E Battle Master vs. Eldritch Knight

Xeviat · Nov 2, 2016

Corwin said:
Are you using A=Combat, B=Exploration, C=Interaction?

If so, what BM maneuvers are useful for B or C? Aren't they really only A?

Conversely, I believe an EK can choose to have spells that apply to B and/or C. As well as some for A.

A is a damage effect, b and c are nondamage maneuvers or spells. Maneuvers can be used to add damage and an effect (there are a few for damage only, like adding to attack or reaction extra attack, though). Spells can be used for damage or defense or some utility.

Cantrips don't really offer much more utility than a skill could. What cantrip are you referencing that would give the EK such a boost in their utility?

Expecting 6 targets for a burning hands is a bit much. A fight with that many opponents at low level is going to be a ton of weak opponents who would die to single hits anyway. Yes, a burning hands could pop them all, and that's super cool. I doubt that's going to happen 2 or 3 times a day. If it does, then your EK, and your Wizard, are being catered to. Nice.

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Corwin · Nov 2, 2016

Xeviat said:
A is a damage effect, b and c are nondamage maneuvers or spells. Maneuvers can be used to add damage and an effect (there are a few for damage only, like adding to attack or reaction extra attack, though). Spells can be used for damage or defense or some utility.

So then you see an EK's spells are more useful in 2/3rds the game than BM maneuvers, right?

Mort · Nov 2, 2016

Xeviat said:
Cantrips don't really offer much more utility than a skill could. What cantrip are you referencing that would give the EK such a boost in their utility?

Mending, while technically doable with skills, can greatly aid a character - especially if the DM keeps track of things that break!

Message is also a pretty good cantrip for keeping up with party members that are scouting ahead etc (it even goes through limited solid objects, very good way to keep track of the party without metagaming).

minor illusion has all sorts of nifty uses - if the group doesn't have an illusionist or a bard, the EK may want to take it.

There are others.

Now an EK is only likely going to take one of these and a combat one for his second and/or third one - but any one of them can enhance utility - particularly at low levels.

Tony Vargas · Nov 2, 2016

Corwin said:
So then you see an EK's spells are more useful in 2/3rds the game than BM maneuvers, right?

Depends on the DMs approach to the pillars (and player attitudes towards them), of course. Campaigns can be combat-centric or downright combat-phobic. Since 5e classes are not balanced within each pillar, the DM can adjust class balance to fit the relative importance of each pillar in his campaign - or adjust emphasis among the pillars to tune class balance.

Corwin · Nov 2, 2016

Tony Vargas said:
Depends on the DMs approach to the pillars (and player attitudes towards them), of course. Campaigns can be combat-centric or downright combat-phobic. Since 5e classes are not balanced within each pillar, the DM can adjust class balance to fit the relative importance of each pillar in his campaign - or adjust emphasis among the pillars to tune class balance.

Trying to invalidate the game's intended focus, on all three pillars, in order to justify someone's skewed position, doesn't seem productive to me. And again, in that case, we are talking about "...in my games," territory. Which is a fine thing to discuss for the fun of it. But then we shouldn't be considering such observations as objective truths about 5e.

Xeviat · Nov 3, 2016

Corwin said:
So then you see an EK's spells are more useful in 2/3rds the game than BM maneuvers, right?

IF the Eldritch Knight chooses those spells, which gives up that vaunted combat utility people say the EK has. They don't have access to all the spells and they don't have a spell book.

It's funny. You keep going on about all this extra utility the EK has. My model puts them ahead of the Battle Master in the high levels. Does that mean the BM is weak at the higher levels, since the EK has all that extra utility in the other tiers?

I don't think EK spells are very helpful out of combat. There's a few things. They could pick a few more with their open availability spells, but I think they'd rather take haste or mirror image or something else. But that's just me. Maybe flight. Flight is cool.

Characters can be balanced in combat. Out of combat, balancing them becomes much, much harder. The fighter needs something for out of combat. The EK isn't it.

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Krachek · Nov 3, 2016

If you want a fighter with spell you play EK.
If you want some cool stuff but no spell you play BM.
If you want to keep it simple you play the champion.
If you want to optimize you play the Spreadsheet Master or the Math Knight!
DnD fit for all style of play.

Corwin · Nov 3, 2016

Xeviat said:
IF the Eldritch Knight chooses those spells, which gives up that vaunted combat utility people say the EK has.

Vaunted? Give up? Are we having the same conversation? Or did you intend to respond to someone else?

Xeviat said:
They don't have access to all the spells and they don't have a spell book.

These are true statements. I'm not sure why you directed them at me, however. I never claimed they did.

Xeviat said:
It's funny. You keep going on about all this extra utility the EK has. My model puts them ahead of the Battle Master in the high levels. Does that mean the BM is weak at the higher levels, since the EK has all that extra utility in the other tiers?

Now I'm positive you meant to quote someone else.

Xeviat said:
I don't think EK spells are very helpful out of combat. There's a few things. They could pick a few more with their open availability spells, but I think they'd rather take haste or mirror image or something else. But that's just me. Maybe flight. Flight is cool.

In order for an EK's spell choices to have more usefulness out of combat than a BM's maneuvers, it need only have more than zero use out of combat. It seems we both agree with those here making that point.

Xeviat said:
Characters can be balanced in combat.

You'd have to define "balance" first before I can agree with that.

Xeviat said:
Out of combat, balancing them becomes much, much harder.

Does it? Again, define "balance" first. How would you even go about trying to "balance" out of combat?

Xeviat said:
The fighter needs something for out of combat.

All characters have stuff for out of combat.

Xeviat said:
The EK isn't it.

It has a clearer, easier path to getting there, though.

Sacrosanct · Nov 3, 2016

Xeviat said:
IF the Eldritch Knight chooses those spells, which gives up that vaunted combat utility people say the EK has. They don't have access to all the spells and they don't have a spell book.

It's funny. You keep going on about all this extra utility the EK has. My model puts them ahead of the Battle Master in the high levels. Does that mean the BM is weak at the higher levels, since the EK has all that extra utility in the other tiers?

I don't think EK spells are very helpful out of combat. There's a few things. They could pick a few more with their open availability spells, but I think they'd rather take haste or mirror image or something else. But that's just me. Maybe flight. Flight is cool.

Characters can be balanced in combat. Out of combat, balancing them becomes much, much harder. The fighter needs something for out of combat. The EK isn't it.

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I'm confused. It's not an either/or. The EK doesn't choose either all combat spells, or no combat spells. The EK can learn spells from any wizard school at level 3, 8, 14, and 20, out of a total of 13 known spells by level 20. So that's one of each level from any school. That means, it's entirely reasonable for an EK to have spells like find familiar, invisibility, gaseous form, and stone shape while still having 9 combat related spells at his or her disposal. And that's not even counting at will cantrips.

So I'm confused on your basic premise, that the EK needs extra combat function to keep up with the BM when the EK has WAY more utility than the BM and that's something that needs to be considered when balancing classes because the entire game isn't played in combat. And I'm double confused why you're saying the EK doesn't have all this extra utility when it clearly does, and does so without giving up hardly any ability to cast combat magic.

Xeviat · Nov 3, 2016

[MENTION=1560]Corwin[/MENTION], yeah, some threads got crossed there. Reading and posting on my phone makes it hard to keep track of everyone.

They still have a limited number of spells per day, though. Any utility function will eat into their combat. My games use the full Daily XP guidelines of the DMG's encounter building section. Perhaps that makes me more sensitive to combat imbalances.

Really, my main objection is that lower level BM. It makes the Champion look dismal and the EK look bad.

Someone here said that maneuvers were reasonably comparable to first level spells. If that's so, they have way too many to start.

As for what balance means, it's when people don't overshadow other people in their niche. I suppose a BM and an EK in the same party could and would probably have different niches. Balance is also when one choice doesn't overwhelm all others at its time, becoming the only choice. Perhaps the difference between EK and BM keeps that from happening, even if the BM is a combat monster for a few levels.

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