D&D 5E Battle Master vs. Eldritch Knight

[Sacrosanct]

I'm comparing damage because it's the only thing comparable between the two.

This just isn't true. The cantrips can be any wizard cantrip. At 3rd, 8th, 14th, and 20th level you can learn any spell, not just abjuration or evocation. And even evocation and abjuration spells can have out of combat ability. One example that comes to mind is years ago when a PC launched a fireball down a hallways that was trapped with hundreds of poison darts ala the opening scene from Raider of the Lost Ark. The fireball destroyed all the darts and the poison on the darts if any did manage to not get destroyed.

So no, damage isn't the only thing comparable between the two. The EK has a lot more utility and functionality, so it's a flawed premise to say the EK is a weaker subclass in general than the BM, or to try to beef up the damage of the EK to make it comparable to a class that doesn't have the other functionality. You're using a flawed baseline assumption of comparison. Hence my "garbage in, garbage out" comment above.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

You are glossing over the Cantrips the Eldritch Knight can use as well. Those can be used every round and in the right conditions a Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade can outpace the Battlemaster. When the War Magic ability comes online this gets even better.

This right here.

The Battlemaster is a little bit ahead of the curve with 4 dice at 3rd level, but by 5th level they fall back into the middle of the pack with other classes.

The Eldritch Knight gets a big jump at 7th level with War Magic if s/he has a good attack cantrip like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade.

I love spellcasters for their utility. As such, my Eldritch Knight has see invisibility as his one "out of school" spell at 7th level and message as one of his cantrips. Those niche utility spells have near infinite value when needed and zero value when not. The security blanket of knowing I don't have to worry about invisible spellcasters more than overcomes the slight damage boost I would have as a Battlemaster fighter.

 

[bganon]

Even if you're comparing by damage, I don't think using smite as a guideline makes much sense. Paladins get half spell progression but have a very limited spell list with basically no direct damage outside of bonus action smites. Eldritch Knights get a very different spell list with few bonus action options, but can cast things like Burning Hands or Thunderwave.

A more reasonable comparison might be to compare the Battlemaster's +12d8 (which is basically guaranteed damage as a free action since most maneuvers can be used on a hit) to two casts of Burning Hands. So how about we say the total number of targets is 6, "typical" damage due to possible saves is 2d6, and the opportunity cost of two actions (two attacks at level 3) is maybe -8 damage given typical fighter output?

Then the comparison is +12d8 vs +12d6-8. Still not great, but not super far out of line. And the point of the EK is that they get more versatility with those slots (Alarm, Shield, PEG) than what a Battlemaster can do with maneuvers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So lets look at the Battle Master vs the Eldritch Knight.

At 3rd level, the Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice. The Eldritch Knight has 2 level 1 spells per day. Those spells are hard to quantify, they can be used to do a lot of different things. But, what if the Eldritch Knight had the Paladin's smite ability?

Well, then, it'd be even more versatile, since it could use it's slots to do all those different things, /or/ to punch out some extra damage.

That would be pretty comparable, so how about we use that for a comparison here.

If you took away all their known spells and just let them smite, sure, it'd be comparable - it'd also be a much less versatile version of the EK.

The Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice, which can be used at their most basic for adding damage and a rider to an attack. There are other things they can do, but so can spells, so we'll consider that comparable.

Nonsense. The range of things that can be done with spells is extreme, and includes plenty of out of combat applications, superiority dice are extremely limited by comparison. And, however many dice the BM gets, he knows very few maneuvers, and all of them appropriate to a 3rd level character.

 

[hejtmane]

This is what I seen from EK unless they put something in Int the best thing EK does is absorb element and shield this is really nice for two handed GWM that are in plate they have 18 ac helps mitigate damage better. Both are reaction spells so they are sweet they work great on anyone wanting to be a meat shield as while. Then when they have access to blur it goes up a notch. Me personally if I am making a guy that cranks out damage I am going Battlemaster if I want a guy that wants more survivability with the damage I go EK for shield and absorb elements spells

 

[jgsugden]

There is a range of acceptable power at any given level. Both of these versions of fighter (as well as Champion) fit right into those ranges.

Further, any analysis of which is 'better' at a given level is going to need to be campaign specific if it is to have any value. How many encounters per SR? Per LR? Does the DM use lots of weenies or tend to throw solos at the party? Does the fighter need to be a tank or a damage dealer? Does the fighter need access to things that can't be achieved without magic? What type of other characters are in the party?

All 5E character builds "work". Some tend to be stronger in most situations, but they're all playable and all do what they are supposed to do. Pick the build that seems most interesting and don't waste time worrying whether it is the most powerful.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well, then, it'd be even more versatile, since it could use it's slots to do all those different things, /or/ to punch out some extra damage. If you took away all their known spells and just let them smite, sure, it'd be comparable - it'd also be a much less versatile version of the EK.

Nonsense. The range of things that can be done with spells is extreme, and includes plenty of out of combat applications, superiority dice are extremely limited by comparison. And, however many dice the BM gets, he knows very few maneuvers, and all of them appropriate to a 3rd level character.

'
You only need to know the good ones though.

Each superiority (or inspiration dice for Bard) dice in effect is roughly equal to a level 1 spell IMHO. The BM has a lolt of versatility and even doing basic stuff out damages the champion.

Damage is not everything but the EK is only a 1/3 caster and by the time you get fireball (level 15 IIRC?) it is not that great. And you almost need the SCAG cantrips to work and even then after level 11 you are better off not using them and having a 3rd attack most of the time. Haste is sexy fora EK but you still have to use an action to cast is although it is very good with an action surge as well- 8 or 9 attacks at level 11+ and you can self cast it at the higher levels.

The BM is very good if you have a dedicated archer in the party and you are using a sword and shield. Rather than spending a turn putting your weapon away you just give your attacks to the archer.

The EK doesn't get enough spells to really do a lot and a lot of self buff spells in 5E are not that good anyway on the wizard list except for a few like haste. Cantrips for an EK do add a bit of versatility though as firing a firebolt is often better than say switching weapons and having 1 attack a round for 1d6+ whatever damage if you are strength based.

Just play a Paladin anyway if you want to gish, I also allow 3rd party stuff and there are Paladins that have access to fireballs anyway and you get the better Cleric buff spells like +2 AC, bless, etc.

The BM is the best fighter I could see the argument made for a level 15+ EK being that (once they get 3rd level spells) or an EK might be marginally better if you use SCAG at certain levels like 7-10. Without SCAG I will stick with the level 15+ EK being the best, BM best fighter overall.

 

[Tony Vargas]

'
You only need to know the good ones though.

Each superiority (or inspiration dice for Bard) dice in effect is roughly equal to a level 1 spell IMHO. The BM has a lolt of versatility and even doing basic stuff out damages the champion.

They're no where near a 1st level spell in versatility or power - that's, presumably, why the BM can have a fair number of them. And they don't ever become 2nd or 3rd level spells, either.

Damage is not everything but the EK is only a 1/3 caster and by the time you get fireball (level 15 IIRC?) it is not that great.

Since fighters are pretty darn good at damage, damaging spells is hardly the way to go for an EK, anyway.

Haste is sexy fora EK but you still have to use an action to cast is although it is very good with an action surge as well- 8 or 9 attacks at level 11+ and you can self cast it at the higher levels.

That'd be a better use of a 3rd level slot, for instance, and certainly, no maneuver compares.

The BM is the best fighter I could see the argument made for a level 15+ EK being that (once they get 3rd level spells) or an EK might be marginally better

Certainly for the carefully-defined 'best at fighting' crown, though just as certainly, the EK will have greater versatility.

 

[Istbor]

Giving them an Arcane strike seems odd. I mean, why not play or multi-class into a Paladin at that point?

 

[Zardnaar]

They're no where near a 1st level spell in versatility or power - that's, presumably, why the BM can have a fair number of them. And they don't ever become 2nd or 3rd level spells, either.

Since fighters are pretty darn good at damage, damaging spells is hardly the way to go for an EK, anyway.

That'd be a better use of a 3rd level slot, for instance, and certainly, no maneuver compares.

Certainly for the carefully-defined 'best at fighting' crown, though just as certainly, the EK will have greater versatility.

Some of them are directly comparable. Shiled for example +5AC compares decently with Lore Bards thing but they do not get it to the end of the round. Commanders strike is not to far off dissonant whispers in effect. It might be a 1.5-1 or 2-1 Ratio but they are not that far off in power relative to level 1 spells and you get all of the other goodies.

If you want out of combat versatility go EK, combat versatility and better at low levels pick battlemaster, if you want simple pick Champion.