D&D 5E Battle Master vs. Eldritch Knight

[Xeviat]

I think the Battle Master is a little too powerful at the start. I think they get too many superiority dice right away. At level 4, they have more superiority dice than Monks have Ki. A monk can use a superiority die to get a chance for (attack roll) +1d4+Dex damage (plus a rider if they're an Open Hand Monk), while the battle master can use a superiority die to get a guaranteed +1d8 damage, plus a rider. Just looking at that makes me unhappy.

But, it's often better to compare subclasses within a class. At least it's easier. So lets look at the Battle Master vs the Eldritch Knight.

At 3rd level, the Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice. The Eldritch Knight has 2 level 1 spells per day. Those spells are hard to quantify, they can be used to do a lot of different things. But, what if the Eldritch Knight had the Paladin's smite ability? That would be pretty comparable, so how about we use that for a comparison here.

The Battle Master has 4d8 superiority dice, which can be used at their most basic for adding damage and a rider to an attack. There are other things they can do, but so can spells, so we'll consider that comparable. The DMG says to expect 2 short rests per day in a busy adventuring day. That means across the day, the Battle Master will be getting +12d8 damage (54) from their superiority dice, if they go all out for full damage.

The Eldritch Knight has 2 spells. If they had smite, they could use each for +2d8 damage (+3d8 against undead; I wouldn't keep that in an arcane smite). That would be +4d8 damage per day (18). At level 4, that would jump up to +6d8 damage (27). No riders. That's still half of what the Battle Master gets.

How do they compare across all the levels?

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD]Battle Master[/TD]
[TD]Eldritch Knight[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]
[TD]4d8 (18)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]
[TD]6d8 (27)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]
[TD]6d8 (27)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]12d8 (54)[/TD]
[TD]6d8 (27)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]15d8 (67.5)
[/TD]
[TD]14d8 (63)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]15d8 (67.5)
[/TD]
[TD]14d8 (63)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]15d8 (67.5)
[/TD]
[TD]14d8 (63)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]15d10 (82.5)
[/TD]
[TD]17d8 (76.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]15d10 (82.5)
[/TD]
[TD]17d8 (76.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]15d10 (82.5)
[/TD]
[TD]17d8 (76.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]15d10 (82.5)
[/TD]
[TD]25d8 (112.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]15d10 (82.5)
[/TD]
[TD]25d8 (112.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5)
[/TD]
[TD]25d8 (112.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5)
[/TD]
[TD]29d8 (130.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]18d10-21d10 (99-115.5)
[/TD]
[TD]29d8 (130.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5)
[/TD]
[TD]29d8 (130.5)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5)
[/TD]
[TD]34d8 (153)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18d12-21d12 (117-136.5)
[/TD]
[TD]34d8 (153)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Interestingly, they're reasonably close between levels 7 and 12. At 6 and below, the EK is quite a ways behind. They end up being reasonably ahead here and there (they're very close at 15 and 18, when the BM gets a boost before the EK, but those benefits are lost when the EK gets their next spell slot).

Now, I know that the Eldritch Knight doesn't get the paladin's smite, but they could. 2 levels of paladin would get them smite, but that would cost them their 4th attack.

But, the following spell seems perfectly reasonable as a new Wizard Evocation spell:

Arcane Strike
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

The next time you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack during the spell's duration, your weapon surges with arcane power, and the attack deals an extra 2d8 force damage to the target.
At Higher Level. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd elvel or higher, the extra damage dealt by the attack increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.

Bladesingers and Eldritch Knights would like that. It wouldn't work with TWFing, but I don't think many Eldritch Knights are built with that in mind.

I'm not really sure of what conclusions to draw here. I still think battle masters get too many dice at those low levels. As they're behind the EK in most other places, starting at 2 dice almost seems more fair. I'd be tempted to start them at 1 die, but have the progression spead up to 1 die every 3 levels, rounded up. That would give them the following progression:

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD]Core[/TD]
[TD]Proposed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1 (3d8, 13.5; EK has 18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2 (6d8, 27; EK has 27)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3 (9d8, 40.5; EK has 63)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]4 (12d10, 66; EK has 76.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]5 (15d10, 82.5; EK has 112.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]5 (15d10, 82.5; EK has 112.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]6-7 (relentless)[/TD]
[TD]5-6 (15-18d10, 82.5-99; EK has 112.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]6-7[/TD]
[TD]6-7 (18-21d10, 99-115.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]6-7[/TD]
[TD]6-7 (18-21d10, 99-115.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]6-7[/TD]
[TD]6-7 (18-21d12, 117-136.5; EK has 130.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]6-7[/TD]
[TD]7-8 (21-24d12, 136.5-156; EK has 136.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]6-7[/TD]
[TD]7-8 (21-24d12, 136.5-156; EK has 136.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It's a strict, and large nerf at the lower levels, and it doesn't even out until 13th (falling behind again at 15th), But, it ends up ahead at 19-20, not that that matters. It also has the benefit of likely evening them out with the Champion, who feels terrible to me until 10th level. As it's a blatant nerf, and a sizable one until 10th level, I don't think I'd ever suggest it to my group. I just found it interesting.

How have your experiences with the Battlemaster been?

 

[Xeviat]

I'm not sure about the battlemaster, the one in our game seemed fine. Mainly, I'm just popping in to say that I like the idea of the arcane strike spell. I am wondering though, if it is meant to be limited in the same fashion as a paladin (maximum damage bonus is 5d8 with 4th or higher level slots or if you don't require that since it requires a bonus action to cast and so you wouldn't get more than one off anyway.

It basically would make it less powerful for an eldritch knight, who gets more attacks in the long run anyway, and more useful for a wizard who gets less attacks but is able to get higher level slots. An arcane trickster would also be able to select it for an additional damage boost with their sneak attack.

Can Arcane Tricksters select spells outside their school? I didn't put the limitation in since I don't think it will matter too much, and the bonus action limitation limits it. An EK would still need to go through most of the day before using up all their spell slots, even if they used that spell every round.

The EK generally will have a higher attack stat than a wizard, except maybe a high level blade singer. Plus, they have multiple attacks. I bet there are better spells for a blade singer to use their high level spells on.

Level 20 blade singer, 9th level spell on an attack action
2x1d8+10 (20 dex, 20 int) +10d6 (64 damage)
How much does meteor swarm do?

Level 20 EK, 4th level spell on attack action
4x1d8+7, +5d6 (63.5 damage); and the fighter can surge for another 46. I'm cool.

The rogue getting +17.5 damage on a sneak attack that's already getting +17.5 damage could be a lot, but I think an assassin's auto crit is effectively the same.


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[UngeheuerLich]

Yes. The battlemaster's 4 dice at atart are a bit too much. But at level 5 it's totally ok.
I am not sure that using arcane strike as the benchmark spell to compare damage is wrong.

Thunderwave or burning hands deal 3d6 or 2d8 damage against 3 or more foes if used well with save for half.
Sleep will take a foe or two out of the fight inmediately. A well placed shield spell is better than parry. SCAG cantrips up the power of at will attacks.
I think the battlemaster at level 3 is ahead, but if played well, the eldritch knight can compete.

 

[Zardnaar]

I do not think the EK is that good until the higher levels of the game hen it is probably the best fighter.

Battlemaster fighter is the best overall, Champion is roughly in the middle but ends up the worst.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I do not think the EK is that good until the higher levels of the game hen it is probably the best fighter.

Battlemaster fighter is the best overall, Champion is roughly in the middle but ends up the worst.

Depends on playstyle.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

You are glossing over the Cantrips the Eldritch Knight can use as well. Those can be used every round and in the right conditions a Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade can outpace the Battlemaster. When the War Magic ability comes online this gets even better.

Currently I have an Eldritch Knight in my game, and I am playing a Battlemaster in another. In both groups, the EK and the BM are not the primary damage dealers and primarily take the role of the tank. The EK uses his spell slots for defensive casts, while I typically use the Menacing Strike attack to prevent advancement on my party. Damage-wise, I think both characters are pretty much on par with one another.

I don't think your Arcane Strike spell is needed though. EK's have a lot of options with their spells (less than full Wizards of course), and I just don't see the EK's role in a group being to dish out big damage. I see the EK working best with battlefield control and defensive spells that funnel the enemies to him and make him harder to hit.

 

[MrHotter]

Why only compare damage? There are pros and cons to any subclass decision.

Your Eldritch Knight is fine. Get the SCAG and get cantrips that you can actually use for your knight during combat.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Why only compare damage? There are pros and cons to any subclass decision.

Your Eldritch Knight is fine. Get the SCAG and get cantrips that you can actually use for your knight during combat.

This. I admit my bias. Posts like this that make declarations about which class is better than another when you're only factoring in one of the 3 pillars of the game while ignoring the other two bother me. Maybe it's because I do software testing in real life, that any time I see an analysis that ignores a huge chunk of game play, it rubs me the wrong way. As we say in the testing world, "garbage in, garbage out". Meaning if you're not starting with an accurate baseline, your result will be worthless.

 

[Xeviat]

This. I admit my bias. Posts like this that make declarations about which class is better than another when you're only factoring in one of the 3 pillars of the game while ignoring the other two bother me. Maybe it's because I do software testing in real life, that any time I see an analysis that ignores a huge chunk of game play, it rubs me the wrong way. As we say in the testing world, "garbage in, garbage out". Meaning if you're not starting with an accurate baseline, your result will be worthless.

I'm comparing damage because it's the only thing comparable between the two.

Shield vs Parry is difficult; parry can be used more, shield is a bigger bonus, but can be worth less, or it can protect against multiple attacks.

Some spells can be useful out of combat, but they are mostly evocation and abjuration, so mostly combat.

Unless I'm missing something, no battle master maneuvers are useful out of combat. My initial question was "does the battle master have too many maneuver dice?" I don't see how my analysis is wrong for that question. If a spell can be used for A and B, and a maneuver can be used for A and C, it's safe to assume that a = b = c, and just compare the different A's.


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[Corwin]

Unless I'm missing something, no battle master maneuvers are useful out of combat. My initial question was "does the battle master have too many maneuver dice?" I don't see how my analysis is wrong for that question. If a spell can be used for A and B, and a maneuver can be used for A and C, it's safe to assume that a = b = c, and just compare the different A's.

Are you using A=Combat, B=Exploration, C=Interaction?

If so, what BM maneuvers are useful for B or C? Aren't they really only A?

Conversely, I believe an EK can choose to have spells that apply to B and/or C. As well as some for A.