D&D 5E Required Class Skills

maceochaid · Jul 13, 2019

I think the flavor of the wizard, that they are students of magic and that is how they cast spells, giving them Arcana automatically makes a lot of sense. I was thinking if doing that. I can also them changing their ribbon ability of copying their school twice as fast, to having expertise in Arcana when dealing with magic from their school. But I would just as soon give all wizards expertise in Arcana as a minor mechanical differentiation from sorcerers and warlocks.

I think Expertise should have been a system rule, not a class rule. It just keeps coming up as they make new classes. It would make it easier to word it so expertise doesn’t stack, and multiclassers would be able to choose their own expertise if they double up somehow.

Kobold Stew · Jul 13, 2019

Yeah, I wasn't clear -- sorry. I do understand you, but I stand by my thought. I like that classes don't give you automatic skills. I can build a rogue without stealth (and there are lots of reasons to do so), or a cleric without religion. And, for the most part, the system holds up allowing those choices.

You are right that Ranger/Stealth makes sense, but so does Ranger/Survival (arguably moreso), or Ranger/Perception. And players can choose.

Kobold Stew · Jul 13, 2019

(Admittedly, I am a heretic on this, as I firmly believe one shouldn't optimize skills by going for the highest numbers. I think Proficiency in Athletics is arguably more important for a character with strength 10 or 12 than one with strength 16.)

Xeviat · Jul 13, 2019

Kobold Stew said:
You are right that Ranger/Stealth makes sense, but so does Ranger/Survival (arguably moreso), or Ranger/Perception. And players can choose.

I tend to try to help avoid "players can choose to have useless abilities". If their skill based class features were on decision points, that would be one thing.

Tony Vargas · Jul 13, 2019

Xeviat said:
What are your thoughts?

Probably to keep a hard-coded class skill from colliding with a hard-coded background skill.

Xeviat · Jul 13, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Probably to keep a hard-coded class skill from colliding with a hard-coded background skill.

Isn't there already a rule about choosing a different skill if you get the same skill from two sources?

bedir than · Jul 13, 2019

Xeviat said:
Isn't there already a rule about choosing a different skill if you get the same skill from two sources?

there are also zero hard-coded background skills. Nothing about backgrounds is hard coded.

Tony Vargas · Jul 13, 2019

Xeviat said:
Isn't there already a rule about choosing a different skill if you get the same skill from two sources?

I couldn't quite recall if there was or whether it was "pick something else" or "just ignore it" (in essence lose a skill).

But, given that there is, it doesn't mean someone didn't think "oh, if I hard-code this, there could be a collision..."

Xeviat · Jul 13, 2019

I just skimmed all the classes, and aside from the rogue's Hide function of cunning action, no class other than the ranger gets class abilities that utilize a particular skill. Plenty of subclasses do, but not the basic classes. This is really interesting to me.

BlivetWidget · Jul 14, 2019

jmartkdr said:
I don't like the idea of requiring skills, because that limits options for no real gain - it's certainly not a balance issue if the wizard doesn't know arcana.

I do mind that a wizard can't get expertise in arcana, though. There's no reason a rogue should be better at that skill than a wizard can ever hope to be.

While it's not a balance issue if a wizard isn't proficient in Arcana, it is an existential issue. DnD wizards are built around Arcana from a conceptual standpoint. How can one research and cast spells without studying the arcane? It would be like talking about a renowned mathematician with only a layman's grasp of math. You could give someone the title, but the DnD classes aren't nominative titles. They denote exceptional abilities beyond what most people can achieve.

All wizards should be proficient in Arcana, IMHO. The expertise is what should be optional. This leaves room for there to be especially studious wizards, while still making all wizards better at Arcana than the average Joe.

BTW, you can give your wizard expertise in Arcana, but you really have to go out of your way to do it (via being a human and taking the Prodigy feat or via multiclassing, both of which technically fall under the optional rules umbrella). And yes, this also annoys me to no end.