D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

hawkeyefan · Dec 11, 2016

@Celtavian Those scenarios may be mathematically possible with the game mechanics...10,000 orcs may be able to defeat an ancient dragon, or 100 level 1 fighters...but why would such a scenario actually play out? Surely that's a battle for the DM to determine the outcome, no?

I don't make my players roll a skill check for every action they take, only when the outcome is in doubt. Smaug attacking Laketown leaves nothing in doubt...not unless there are some PCs there.

The math is a tool to serve the narrative. It's not supposed to determine the narrative.

Adhering so closely to the math makes it a case of the tail wagging the dog. Ignore the math and just go with what you want to happen unless the PCs are concerned. In the case of a battle between Smaug and some PCs...well, if for some reason, like maybe extreme optimization, you feel that the chances are heavily skewed toward the PCs, ten I would simply grant legendary actions to Smaug, and maybe even some lair actions. Give him enough actions spread out over a whole turn and he'll be able to deal with just about any party.

Celtavian · Dec 11, 2016

hawkeyefan said:
@Celtavian Those scenarios may be mathematically possible with the game mechanics...10,000 orcs may be able to defeat an ancient dragon, or 100 level 1 fighters...but why would such a scenario actually play out? Surely that's a battle for the DM to determine the outcome, no?

I don't make my players roll a skill check for every action they take, only when the outcome is in doubt. Smaug attacking Laketown leaves nothing in doubt...not unless there are some PCs there.

The math is a tool to serve the narrative. It's not supposed to determine the narrative.

Adhering so closely to the math makes it a case of the tail wagging the dog. Ignore the math and just go with what you want to happen unless the PCs are concerned. In the case of a battle between Smaug and some PCs...well, if for some reason, like maybe extreme optimization, you feel that the chances are heavily skewed toward the PCs, ten I would simply grant legendary actions to Smaug, and maybe even some lair actions. Give him enough actions spread out over a whole turn and he'll be able to deal with just about any party.

It's hard to ignore the math when it is such an integral part of the game. I'd rather figure out how to make the math and the narrative work cooperatively. There's one strategy I've seen tossed around where a necromancer or druid constantly supply themselves with a number of low CR creatures to do extensive damage against powerful creatures like dragons or demons. Skeleton archers are very effective for this and owls or wolves. Do I deny a player access to these abilities because they disrupt my image of how the scenario should play out? Or would it be better to adjust the math to fit the narrative capability I want the creature to have, while letting the player have full access to their abilities? I tend to go with the latter.

I can narrate the devastation of a dragon. If it doesn't live up to the billing in the fight such as a druid or necromancer killing it with small animals and skeleton archers, is that a good game simulation of a fantasy archetype?

hawkeyefan · Dec 11, 2016

Celtavian said:
It's hard to ignore the math when it is such an integral part of the game. I'd rather figure out how to make the math and the narrative work cooperatively. There's one strategy I've seen tossed around where a necromancer or druid constantly supply themselves with a number of low CR creatures to do extensive damage against powerful creatures like dragons or demons. Skeleton archers are very effective for this and owls or wolves. Do I deny a player access to these abilities because they disrupt my image of how the scenario should play out? Or would it be better to adjust the math to fit the narrative capability I want the creature to have, while letting the player have full access to their abilities? I tend to go with the latter.

Sure, but that's a different scenario. I wouldn't suggest taking anything from the players. Not without good reason.

Players don't summon anywhere near the kinds of numbers we're talking about.

Celtavian · Dec 11, 2016

hawkeyefan said:
Sure, but that's a different scenario. I wouldn't suggest taking anything from the players. Not without good reason.

Players don't summon anywhere near the kinds of numbers we're talking about.

No. But summon animals does quite a few small creatures that add up to a lot of damage. And necromancers can raise a lot of skeletons. If they are able to use them, they do a truck ton of damage that overshadows other classes and gloryhog some of the most impactful encounters.

Harzel · Dec 11, 2016

Celtavian said:
<snip> Skeleton archers are very effective for this and owls or wolves. <snip>

I know it's beside the point, but owls? Owls are +3 to hit and do 1HP damage. Having a dragon scratched to death by owls would be a memorable story though.

hawkeyefan · Dec 11, 2016

Celtavian said:
No. But summon animals does quite a few small creatures that add up to a lot of damage. And necromancers can raise a lot of skeletons. If they are able to use them, they do a truck ton of damage that overshadows other classes and gloryhog some of the most impactful encounters.

I still don't think either approach is viable. Create Undead takes a minute to cast and creates a handful of undead at most. As for summoning owls...I'll go back on what I said a bit and say that I would have no problem determining that owls are incapable of hurting a dragon. Not to take anything away from the players but rather because they need to come up with a better plan than owls. This is actually a good example of where I'd gladly toss the math out the window. The talons of owls can't pierce dragonhide, simple as that.

Edited to clarify that I'd let the player know that this was unlikely to work before he used the spell. I wouldn't make him waste a turn on a gambit that I think would be clear to fail.

Celtavian · Dec 11, 2016

Harzel said:
I know it's beside the point, but owls? Owls are +3 to hit and do 1HP damage. Having a dragon scratched to death by owls would be a memorable story though.

Giant owls.

Celtavian · Dec 11, 2016

hawkeyefan said:
I still don't think either approach is viable. Create Undead takes a minute to cast and creates a handful of undead at most. As for summoning owls...I'll go back on what I said a bit and say that I would have no problem determining that owls are incapable of hurting a dragon. Not to take anything away from the players but rather because they need to come up with a better plan than owls. This is actually a good example of where I'd gladly toss the math out the window. The talons of owls can't pierce dragonhide, simple as that.

Edited to clarify that I'd let the player know that this was unlikely to work before he used the spell. I wouldn't make him waste a turn on a gambit that I think would be clear to fail.

Would you do the same with orc arrows on the dragon hide? Would you give it some kind of a damage resistance?

Flamestrike · Dec 11, 2016

Quick update.

As expected the PCs attacked the Kobolds. They broke the fight off halfway through to talk. Then the dwarf activated his boots of flying and everything went pear-shaped. Long story short the druid got stabbed to death by a bunch of kobolds.

The PCs returned to town (The warlock got lost and got attacked by wyvern hilariously) and then returned back to the dungeon to recover the Druids body. They got there just in time before the Kobold's had eaten the druid. After some tense negotiations the Kobolds agreed to return the Druids body (without equipment) to the PCs.

The PCs then returned to town. They long rested to recover spells lost so they could cast raise dead. This triggered the encounter with the orcs. I reduced the number of orc patrols because there were only three PCs. They were successful and the druid is now alive again. It's midday and theyre debating what to do next.

Our dwarf cleric paladin novaed the sh*t out of the Tannaruuk. Plus he just dumped a fifth level spell slot to resurrect the druid.

They figure they can get to the keep where the orcs are camped out just after sundown.

The players have all gone down the road to get some food. I'll update you guys in a few hours how it went.

hawkeyefan · Dec 11, 2016

Celtavian said:
Giant owls.

You had said "summon animals allows quite a bit of small creatures" so I did not think you meant giant owls. I wouldn't limit the damage of such summoned creatures...but I also wouldn't expect it to matter too much.

Celtavian said:
Would you do the same with orc arrows on the dragon hide? Would you give it some kind of a damage resistance?

I don't think I would even bother. I can't rally imagine a scenario where I wouldn't be handling a battle with orcs and a dragon narratively. Meaning the mechanics never really matter. An NPC dragon fighting an NPC group of orcs means I put the rules aside and simply explain what happens. Which would typically be that the dragon obliterates them...unless they were exceptional orcs of some sort. Does that mean I gave the dragon resistance or immunity to their arrows? I don't really know...but t it doesn't matter.

I don't worry about the math for things that I handle purely narratively.

If one of the PCs was an orc, then of course not.

D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

hawkeyefan

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Celtavian

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Celtavian

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Harzel

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Celtavian

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