Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!

It was a long bank holiday weekend here in the UK, and I sent most of it in the (rare) sun eating BBQ; there were two big Pathfinder 2 blog posts which went up in the meantime. The first dealt with armour and shields; the other was our first look at the new Paladin class!

It was a long bank holiday weekend here in the UK, and I sent most of it in the (rare) sun eating BBQ; there were two big Pathfinder 2 blog posts which went up in the meantime. The first dealt with armour and shields; the other was our first look at the new Paladin class!


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  • Armor now affects Touch AC; each has a different bonus for AD and TAC.
    • Studded leather +2 AC, +0 TAC
    • Chain shirt +2 AC, +1 TAC, noisy
  • Armor has traits, such as "noisy".
  • Armor has a Dex mod cap to AC, penalties to STR/Dex/Con skill checks, a Speed penalty, and a Bulk value.
  • Potency Runes -- Items can be enhanced with potency runes.
    • Bonuses to attack rolls, increase on number of damage dice (weapons)
    • Bonus to AC, TAC, and saving throws (armor)
    • Example studded leather with +3 armor potency rune gives +5 AC, +3 TAC, and +3 to your saves.
    • Potency runes can be upgraded.
  • Shields -- requires an action to use and gain an AC and TAC bonus for one round.
  • Other gear -- gear has quality levels (poor -2, expert +1, master +2)
  • Interact -- this is a new action, used for grabbing objects, opening doors, drawing weapons, etc.


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  • Paladins! Apparently the most contentious class.
  • Core rules have lawful good paladins only (others may appear in other products)
  • Paladin's Code -- paladins must follow their code, or lose their Spell Point pool and righteous ally class feature.
  • Oaths are feats and include Fiendsbane Oath (constant damage to fiends, block their dimensional travel)
  • Class features and feats --
    • Retributive strike (1st level) -- counterattacks and enfeebles a foe
    • Lay on hands (1st level) -- single action healing spell which also gives a one-round AC bonus
    • Divine Grace (2nd level) -- saving throw boost
    • Righteous ally (3rd level) -- house a holy spirit in a weapon or steed
    • Aura of Courage (4th level) -- reduce the frightened condition
    • Attack of Opportunity (6th level) -- presumably the basic AoO action
    • Second Ally (8th level) -- gain a second righteous ally
    • Aura of Righteousness (14th level) -- resist evil damage
    • Hero's defiance (19th level) -- keep standing at 0 HP
  • Litanies -- single action spells, verbal, last one round.
    • Litany of righteousness -- weakens enemy to your allies' attacks
    • Litany against sloth -- slows the enemy, costing reactions or actions
[FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT]
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
And shouldn't there be a place in the rules for inferior armor?

Yeah, but defective armors should be in a separate table, away from the standard table.

Also, P2 seems to have a tier system for armor quality.

−2 Poor
−1 ...
+0 ...
+1 Expert
+2 Master

Ring armor is exactly ‘poor’ ‘scale armor’.

For certain settings where resources are scarce and scavenging is a prominent trope, it is ok to have flavorful descriptions for what ‘poor’ armor looks like. But again, it would be a separate nonstandard table. So, in some metal-scarce settings, poor scale armor might look like elegant padded leather with large thin rings sewn onto it. In some technology-scarce settings, poor scale armor might look like wearing junkyard scraps.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
Darksun is a setting, where you want a table for poor armors, along with vivid descriptions in the text.

But note, Darksun with its metal scarcity, uses weapons of quartz and obsidian analogous to Latin American Native peoples. These weapons are razor sharp and highly effective. Their problem is they are nondurable, in constant need of repair, sharpening and replacing the obsidian teeth, and continually go from master to poor.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
[MENTION=6914290]Gammadoodler[/MENTION] maybe I'm extreme-picky in my likings, actually that is quite likely the case, but I don't think I'm alone. The paladin archetype predates RPGs and extends beyond gamers. There is nothing there about being the zealous puppet of a deity. It is all about justice, hope and capital good.

And speaking of GOOD, I held it to be an objective force, independent of the wills of the so-called deities, I don't see it as a personification with its own will. And definitely not a god -unless you go pantheist on it-. In my view, paladins tap into it, and they manage to do it out of their own virtue and conviction. Why is their path harder than that of a cleric? because there are no shortcuts. If they falter, if they let evil taint their hearts, then they cannot tap into GOOD anymore. Anybody could tap into it if they had the purity of heart and strong desire to do good and fight for justice.
[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] Exactly! I cannot buy any of the "good" gods being actually good in the Realms. The mere existence of the wall shows it. Any actual good god would have opposed it from the beginning. "Kelemvor, if you want to rebuild the wall, you'd rather start by killing and putting us on it. Cause we won't let you cause any harm to souls just for the sake of MOAR power to the gods".

In my contributions to this thread I am not trying to argue for how Paizo should present their PF2 paladin class; nor for what is "the best" presentation of such a class in a RPG. Those are questions that have to be answered using knowledge about player preferences, market trends, etc, and I don't have that knowledge.

I am talking about the archetype of the paladin. D&D didn't invent this archetype; nor did Poul Anderson. (Though clearly he was influential on the particular way D&D first operationalised it.)

Sure he didn't.

Applying this to the idea of alignment and code in the D&D context, the paladin should be seeing, and revealing, the good in law whenever it comes up. And the paladin has no duty to subjugate his or her judgement to that of someone who lies about, manipulates or ruthlessly (mis-)applies the law. Aragorn's dealing with Beregond is a clear example of this.

Aragorn may be called a ranger, but he behaves like a paladin, fights like a paladin, has healing touch like a paladin and quacks like a paladin.

In the RPGing context, I think there are three main options:
(1) The GM goes along with the paladin player's desire to play a paladin, and therefore presents a world in which it's clear that the pursuit of honour and justice and fidelity to law and tradition can be reconciled. (And this sort of GM will go along with imaginative reconciliations that the player puts forward, in the spirit of Aragorn.)

(2) The GM believes that the paladin's ideals are flawed, and therefore presents a world in which conflict between honour, justice and fidelity is inevitable. Further consequences of this may be that the paladin falls, or we invent workarounds for the code and alignment (as the PF2 preview does).

(3) The actual play of the game is oriented towards finding out whether or not the paladin's ideals are true or flawed.

Personally I prefer (3), and am currently playing a paladin in such a game. (Not D&D, though - Burning Wheel.)

For a fairly light or DL-ish sort of campaign, I think (1) is appropriate.

I personally think (2) is the pits for RPGing, and wouldn't want to play a paladin in such a game, but I'm sure others disagree.

It'd be cool to play a paladin in (2) and make the DM change his mind. Not happening, but I would play one in that situation just to try. But yeah, a paladin is more appropriate for a world where good actually means something, it doesn't have to be clearly black and white, so long as no true gray exists.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
In reallife, I care about ‘alignment’. For the game, I want alignment out of mechanics.

Alignment belongs in the bio, in the personality section, along with ideals and ambitions.



Likewise, I want polytheism out of the mechanics. Polytheism, if any, belongs in the setting cosmology − or even better, in the descriptions of certain cultures.

Make the ‘deep’ astral plane a dream-like mental realm of ideals, where each culture can subjectively interact with their own cultural archetypes, symbols, and values − as well as their own concepts of fears and crimes. For example, a monotheistic culture might encounter their ideals as heroes or angels, or even better as abstract scenarios of how people relate to each other.
 

I guess we could argue it like the chicken and the egg. I feel there is ample evidence of unjust laws throughout history to suggest that it's not a wholly sensible argument, but I can concede the potential.
Obviously different people write laws for different reasons. But justice is one of those reasons. And since this conversation is about lawful good paladins rather than lawful evil tyrants, justice makes a whole lot of sense here.

And thus we come full circle where someone might try to design a conundrum for a character who is both "lawful" and "good" that forces them to compromise on one or the other of those attributes.
Unless what you've been trying to say all along is that "Lawful" = "Good", in which case we have engaged in a truly silly discussion.
I'd say that the best way to understand the paladin's worldview as something which a sensible three-dimensional character might actually want to follow, as opposed to a contradictory mess with which to torment lawful stupid strawmen, is to view it as a synthesis. "Lawful" and "good" are not two attributes -- "lawful good" is a single attribute. A paladin swears one oath, not two. Depending on the campaign, they might not even be aware of the distinction between law and good as we define them -- what we think of as "lawful good" they are just as likely to think of with a one-word label like, oh, "justice". So attempting to design a conundrum along these lines is assuming premises that the paladin rejects.

That's not to say that paladins can never face difficult choices. But they're not going to be difficult because one horn of the dilemma is "good" and the other horn is "lawful"; they're going to be difficult because both horns are "lawful good" in different ways. To take the executing-an-innocent scenario as you have analyzed it, carrying out the execution is both lawful and good because it upholds the general faith in the law which protects and benefits society, and stopping the execution is both lawful and good because it prevents a perversion of the law and saves a life. Now, by my analysis if I were playing the paladin, I would not see any good in using the death of an innocent as a means to an end, but that wouldn't turn this into a dilemma between law and good either: it would just make the wrong choice obvious, rendering this not a dilemma at all.
 

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], Based on your expressed intent, there are some mixed messages included here. "It's not about how Paizo does it, it's about the one true appropriate way to define it by literary heritage". So, it's not that Paizo is wrong, but they're also not right? I'm legitimately curious here, where are you you trying to plant your flag, and for what?

Dismissing Aragorn as being a ranger kinda wasn't the point, though I'm perfectly willing to stand by it (There was a lot of running or hiding from no-win situations rather than head-on confrontations with them in honorable combat; it wasn't Aragorn solo on the bridge with the balrog). I'm sure there is a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B here. The larger point is that as, king, he makes the rules, so it's not like he has to really concern himself with the law. I may be way off base, but I suspect that most GMs wouldn't immediately allow one of their PCs to include "rightful king" in their backstory without some significant cautionary discussion beforehand.

As it relates to the creation of the dilemma. The goal is not to cause a character to fall, but force the player to evaluate what the character's values really are and take responsibility for choices and/or sacrifices that they make. It's not really even about the outcome, it's about making space for character-defining choices.

As for the options you present, I don't think they are incompatible with each other, exposure to the whole mix would be worthwhile. Sole use of option 1 seems like it'd be the pits for the DM and other PCs as it sounds like any conflict that the DM could throw your way you end up handwaving with, "I do x..and it works..because paladin."
 

@MoonSong
So to be clear, do you feel your version of the paladin could not be represented under any version of "holy warrior" class, that it must be distinctly it's own thing?

And Good is essentially a force, like gravity that only Paladins can draw on? (And further that there are no other similar type forces from which other warriors could draw similar power without the requirement for absolute virtue?) And at the gaming table, I'm assuming the GM decides what is and is not Good or are you prepared to define what is and is not Good?

As far as Aragorn as paladin or ranger goes, I've discussed as much of that as I'm really willing to since it doesn't actually lead anywhere.
 
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[MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION]

Obviously different people write laws for different reasons. But justice is one of those reasons. And since this conversation is about lawful good paladins rather than lawful evil tyrants, justice makes a whole lot of sense here.

Except that typically, paladins (even assuming they are always good) aren't the ones writing the laws, they'd be the ones subject to and or enforcing those laws, whatever they are, and regardless of any ideals or purposes intrinsic to those laws' creation. If the laws are unjust, and the paladin is unwilling to follow or enforce them, that paladin would not be characterized as "lawful" while they may still be "good."

I'd say that the best way to understand the paladin's worldview as something which a sensible three-dimensional character might actually want to follow, as opposed to a contradictory mess with which to torment lawful stupid strawmen, is to view it as a synthesis. "Lawful" and "good" are not two attributes -- "lawful good" is a single attribute. A paladin swears one oath, not two. Depending on the campaign, they might not even be aware of the distinction between law and good as we define them -- what we think of as "lawful good" they are just as likely to think of with a one-word label like, oh, "justice". So attempting to design a conundrum along these lines is assuming premises that the paladin rejects.

That's not to say that paladins can never face difficult choices. But they're not going to be difficult because one horn of the dilemma is "good" and the other horn is "lawful"; they're going to be difficult because both horns are "lawful good" in different ways. To take the executing-an-innocent scenario as you have analyzed it, carrying out the execution is both lawful and good because it upholds the general faith in the law which protects and benefits society, and stopping the execution is both lawful and good because it prevents a perversion of the law and saves a life. Now, by my analysis if I were playing the paladin, I would not see any good in using the death of an innocent as a means to an end, but that wouldn't turn this into a dilemma between law and good either: it would just make the wrong choice obvious, rendering this not a dilemma at all.

Ahh..so you are saying that "lawful" and "good" are either the same thing or so tightly linked that there is no meaningful way to parse them. If that's the case, then the "lawful" part of it doesn't really mean anything does it?

So, by your reckoning paladins can:

1. Follow and enforce the law
2. Choose to follow and enforce "the spirit of the law" if the actual law is insufficient.. OR
3. If "the spirit of the law" sucks too (e.g. slavery), they can just not follow or enforce the law, because .. paladins.

Oh and no matter what they do, they're still lawful good.

Do you see how the "lawful" portion of your "lawful good" behavior gets to be pretty vestigial by the end there?
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], Based on your expressed intent, there are some mixed messages included here. "It's not about how Paizo does it, it's about the one true appropriate way to define it by literary heritage". So, it's not that Paizo is wrong, but they're also not right? I'm legitimately curious here, where are you you trying to plant your flag, and for what?
I'm saying that there is a literary (and not purely literary) archetype, and that is where the paladin comes from.

A D&D or PF class may or may not be called a paladin, and may or may not correspond to that archetype. That's an issue of game design and, probably more importantly, game marketing. As I said, I don't know what will make a game play well for the majority of the PF2 market. What I am also saying, though, is that a version of the "paladin" that ranks the tenets of the code - thereby, for instance, expressing the worry that honour and goodness might come into conflict - is departing from the archetype.

That departure may be popular or unpopular, and may make for better gameplay or worse gameplay at someone's table. I'm offering an analysis of it, not saying whether or not it's a good thing.

as, king, he makes the rules, so it's not like he has to really concern himself with the law.
This isn't an accurate account of mediaeval kingship in general, certainly not of the idealised conception of it that JRRT is engaging with. I haven't got my copy of LotR in front of me, but I found a copy of the passage online:

"Beregond, by your sword blood was spilled in the Hallows, where that is forbidden. Also you left your post without leave of Lord or Captain. For these things, of old, death was the penalty. Now therefore I shall pronounce your doom."

"All penalty is remitted for your valour in battle, and still more because all that you did was for the love of the Lord Faramir. Nonetheless you must leave the Guard of the Citadel, and you must go forth from the city of Minas Tirith..."

"So it must be, for you are appointed to the White Company, the Guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, and you shall be its captain and dwell in Emyn Arnen in honour and peace, and in the service of him for whom you risked all, to save him from death."​

Putting it in more sociological terms (and using Weber's sociology of law and governmental authority - not everyone likes it, but I do), Aragorn here is drawing on his charismatic authority to shape the understanding and application of traditional law. He doesn't claim to be dispensing with the law - rather, he applies it: he pronounces judgement, remitting the death penalty, imposing exile instead but the exile taking the form of an honourable appointment that recognises the valour that underpins the remittance. The application upholds all that is valuable in the traditional law: valour; loyalty to the king and the stewards; loyalty to the city of Minas Tirith. It is not an act of law-making in any self-conscious sense.

Another example, I think less nuanced but from a D&D source, is the way the character of Sturm Brightblade in the DL Chronicles reveals the true meaning of the Oath that "My Honour is My Life".

I may be way off base, but I suspect that most GMs wouldn't immediately allow one of their PCs to include "rightful king" in their backstory without some significant cautionary discussion beforehand.
But a paladin doesn't need to be a lawmaker to see the good in the law and voice it. Of course - which relates directly to the 3 ways I identified to approach a game with a paladin in it - the GM can always push back. So to pick up again on [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION]'s example of the orphan who inadvertently enters the forbidden palace courtyard: if the player of the paladin, speaking in character to the decision-maker, suggests as an application of the law that s/he take the orphan into service, thus rendering the orphan not a forbidden person, the GM can have the queen (or whomever is making the decision) refuse and try to insist on execution. But that would be contrary to approach (1) - which, rather, would have the queen agree with the paladin and recognise the wisdom of his/her solution. It would fit with approach (3) only if the player of the paladin fails to succeed in the appropriate resolution framework; in which case, it would be part of the process, perhaps, of discovering that the paladin's ideals are, indeed, futile. Under approach (2) the GM might just decide that the queen says no, and then the player of the paladin has to decide to break the law and disregard a legitimate command in order to save an innocent life. This seems to be what Paizo has in mind in building a hierarchy into the code.

As it relates to the creation of the dilemma. The goal is not to cause a character to fall, but force the player to evaluate what the character's values really are and take responsibility for choices and/or sacrifices that they make. It's not really even about the outcome, it's about making space for character-defining choices.
But a paladin's values are already clear. We know what they are: truth, honour/I], virtue, steadfastness, courtesy, humility, courage, generosity are some of the most obvious ones.

The idea that we have to evaluate which of these the character really adheres to already takes, as a premise, that you can't adhere to them all at once: which is to say already takes as a premise that the paladin is foolish, naive, utopian, etc, in believing as s/he does.
 

Except that typically, paladins (even assuming they are always good) aren't the ones writing the laws, they'd be the ones subject to and or enforcing those laws, whatever they are, and regardless of any ideals or purposes intrinsic to those laws' creation.
Why "regardless of any ideals or purposes"? The paladin is all about grand ideals and greater purposes. Quoting 5E because the book is at hand: "...their loyalty is first to the cause of righteousness, not to crown and country."

If the laws are unjust, and the paladin is unwilling to follow or enforce them, that paladin would not be characterized as "lawful" while they may still be "good."
Why not? A character who is committed to upholding good laws sure sounds "lawful good" to me. The commitment you are describing -- to all law while remaining neutral on whether it's good or evil -- sounds like it might be something else.

Ahh..so you are saying that "lawful" and "good" are either the same thing or so tightly linked that there is no meaningful way to parse them. If that's the case, then the "lawful" part of it doesn't really mean anything does it?
No, I am saying that in the mind of the paladin, they are synthesized into a single ideal. It does not follow from this that one part or the other is meaningless. You cannot easily reseparate the components of of a mixed drink, but that doesn't mean a screwdriver is the same as a glass of orange juice.

So, by your reckoning paladins can:

1. Follow and enforce the law
2. Choose to follow and enforce "the spirit of the law" if the actual law is insufficient.. OR
3. If "the spirit of the law" sucks too (e.g. slavery), they can just not follow or enforce the law, because .. paladins.

Oh and no matter what they do, they're still lawful good.

Do you see how the "lawful" portion of your "lawful good" behavior gets to be pretty vestigial by the end there?
But if they did enforce even the bad laws, well, it'd be the "good" portion of their alignment that was vestigial, wouldn't it? As I hinted above, I think the basic problem is that you're conflating "lawful" with "lawful neutral". There is no "neutral" in "lawful good". They are allowed to notice whether or not a law is good. I cite as evidence of this the fact that it makes lawful goodness possible, whereas your definitions seem simply to render it impossible.
 

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