D&D 5E Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented

Psyzhran2357 · Jun 21, 2019

Sacrosanct said:
It’s been mentioned in this thread several times already.

Nothing for 5e as far as I can tell, at least not in the core books. Which is the very topic of this thread: how haphazardly and poorly implemented the metal restriction is in 5e.

Sacrosanct · Jun 21, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
It's the same with celibate priests. Sometimes a celibate priest will have sex. They do not stop being a priest. Sometimes they will repent and seek forgiveness, perhaps doing some kind of penance. Sometimes they will cover it up and try to pretend it didn't happen, with or without the connivance of church.

Interesting analogy. One that actually proves a point, just the opposite of what you think. Laicization is the process of which a catholic priest loses all of their Uber god powerz. They are no longer a priest. RAW (to use D&D terms), any priest who marries or has sex will go through that process. It has not been followed through in some cases, but that doesn’t change how that’s the rule and process. Just like how if your gaming table won’t de-Druid a Druid who wears armor, that doesn’t change the fact that the rule is clear.

lowkey13 · Jun 21, 2019

*Deleted by user*

Paul Farquhar · Jun 21, 2019

Sacrosanct said:
Interesting analogy. One that actually proves a point, just the opposite of what you think. Laicization is the process of which a catholic priest loses all of their Uber god powerz. They are no longer a priest. RAW (to use D&D terms), any priest who marries or has sex will go through that process. It has not been followed through in some cases, but that doesn’t change how that’s the rule and process. Just like how if your gaming table won’t de-Druid a Druid who wears armor, that doesn’t change the fact that the rule is clear.

In catholic teaching recent rulings override older ones. And the church has long taught that a priest who breaks their vows but repents is forgiven. In fact, it has often gone the other way (largely due to a shortage of priests), a priest who completely rejects the church, marries and has a family remains, in the eyes of the Church a priest. They cannot choose to stop being a priest no matter what they do.

Of course, if you rule that a character who is no called a druid cannot have the powers of a druid, then it clearly follows that a character who is not a Japanese noble cannot be a Samurai.

Psyzhran2357 · Jun 21, 2019

matsifYesterday at 11:19 AM

the metal stuff for druids should be ignored. the celts were great bronze workers and the druid is mostly based on them, the whole "no metal" thing is silly at best.

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:20 AM

the celts invented chainmail

eerongalYesterday at 11:20 AM

pfft, as if i'd allow historical accuracy to taint my D&D game

NumbugYesterday at 11:20 AM

And who said metal is unnatural?

Red Rick DiasYesterday at 11:21 AM

The celts didn't invent chainmail, your momma did! The celts is THE DEVIL!

Hmm... would this make Bobby Boucher a Cleric of Momma until he class-changes into a Paladin of Vengeance later on?

matsifYesterday at 11:22 AM

the whole idea of "but no metal" when they are proficient in scimitars is a bit hypocritical to me as well if you ignore the "historical accuracy" things

NumbugYesterday at 11:22 AM

When looking at the d&d Druid you should definitely be thinking about it in terms of modern druidity, which is a lot more explicit about the whole nature thing

and even then, metal is a natural thing :U

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:22 AM

Like Neopagan stuff?

NumbugYesterday at 11:22 AM

So in terms of realism, it's a completely arbitrary restriction

matsifYesterday at 11:23 AM

especially when folks end up doing things like "well here's ironwood that does the same thing as metal for the sake of armor but isn't metal so you can actually have an AC"

RedYesterday at 11:23 AM

"modern druidity"

Red Rick DiasYesterday at 11:23 AM

I remember an old WOTC mini, the Greenfang Druid.

Which wore wood all over, but had a metal scimitar in hand.

eerongalYesterday at 11:23 AM

i think its more the idea of metal working being "unnatural" than metal itself being "unnatural"

NumbugYesterday at 11:23 AM

It got revived

I think it's niche?

But yeah

eerongalYesterday at 11:23 AM

though, doesnt apply to weapons for whatever reason

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:24 AM

Wicca I've heard of

as well as general Neopaganism

modern Druidism escaped my notice though

eerongalYesterday at 11:25 AM

in AD&D, the reason for not wearing metal armor was because it basically "cut them off" from their magic

like a barrier to it

in 5e, its basically a flavor hold over

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:27 AM

Meanwhile, Spore Druids are crying because unless you're a Warforged or a Tortle or a Loxodon, your AC is

, so you'll get chewed up if you go into melee, but you need to go into melee to use your subclass features, and blargh...

matsifYesterday at 11:27 AM

yeah and paladins and bards and monks and druids used to have alignment restrictions from "flavor holdover." it's generally a nonsensical flavor limitation that people believe is a requirement because of where it is placed in the PHB that should be removed.

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:28 AM

It would work so much better if it was in the class introductory prelude

or better yet, in a grey sidebar

but not in the proficiencies list ffs

matsifYesterday at 11:29 AM

druid already has a perfect spot for it

"sacred woods and plants"

greenbox aside

but instead it's part of proficiencies so people take it as direct RAW, and then someone wants to play a druid that actually uses that medium armor proficiency and the DM ends up making "ironwood" or [insert carapace or chitin or other material] half plate so that the druid can circumvent that, at which point why even have the restriction

eerongalYesterday at 11:31 AM

i mean, its been clearly stated by WotC that druids explode if they put on metal armor(edited)

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:32 AM

They deal 15d8 thunder damage when they explode

in a 30 foot radius

PraxisYesterday at 11:32 AM

I feel like 5e has a bunch of things like that - restrictions or rules that exist for flavour but are placed in a way that sometimes give the impression they exist for balance reasons

matsifYesterday at 11:35 AM

people take the racial limitations on the SCAG subclasses that have them as direct RAW even though it says right in the limitation that the DM can ignore it

PraxisYesterday at 11:37 AM

same with backgrounds - they're very customizable RAW but plenty of people see an enumerated list and assume it's meant to cover all the available options

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:40 AM

I'd fix it by restricting druids to light armor (and maybe hide) but give them an armor bonus for wearing armor made out of animal or plant material

eerongalYesterday at 11:40 AM

that's actually a pretty good idea

give like a +2 AC for wearing armors made of cloth/leather/animal/plant stuffs

it helps encourage wearing "natural" armors

matsifYesterday at 11:41 AM

I just don't see the point of having the restriction to begin with if you're going to allow them to use metal in their weapons still

eerongalYesterday at 11:41 AM

or maybe even make it like an "unarmored defense" type thing

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:42 AM

because metal doesn't touch their body

matsifYesterday at 11:42 AM

if the culture is forging metal weapons then you're making a lot of logical jumps to think no one in the druid's culture would attempt to make metal armor

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:42 AM

Might be a sympathetic magic thing

eerongalYesterday at 11:42 AM

something like "when wearing armor made of plant/animal material you can instead use 10 + dex + wis for your AC"

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:42 AM

like a crescent is a holy symbol

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:42 AM

nah that'd give them the highest AC ever

morikahnYesterday at 11:43 AM

i think the restirction on druids using metal equipment is less about the material and its ties to civilization

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:43 AM

or it might be a feng shui thing, except on your body...???

but again

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:43 AM

they'd have like 25 AC with a shield

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:43 AM

that requires ACTUALLY EXPLAINING IT(edited)

morikahnYesterday at 11:43 AM

worked metal is a sign of an advanced civilization

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:43 AM

Anyway the reason druids can use metal weapons is because they need to be able to harvest sacred herbs for their rituals

ConstructmanYesterday at 11:43 AM

Stone knife: am I a joke to you?

Christ AvelloneYesterday at 11:43 AM

that's why they have scimitar proficiency: in 1e there was no "sickle" weapon and the scimitar was the closest to a druidic sickle

you try harvesting with a stone knife

you're more likely to crush your crop than slice it

matsifYesterday at 11:44 AM

I guess obsidian isn't real

Sacrosanct · Jun 21, 2019

Psyzhran2357 said:
Nothing for 5e as far as I can tell, at least not in the core books. Which is the very topic of this thread: how haphazardly and poorly implemented the metal restriction is in 5e.

It’s there, and has been pointed out. This whole “opinion =/= facts” thing appears to be throwing you for a loop.

Psyzhran2357 · Jun 21, 2019

lowkey13 said:
Not to be too obvious, but:

Why is it that there are, largely, two groups of people in this debate.

The first sees the druid restriction, understands it for what it is, and are like, "Okay, cool, if other people disagree with it, then they can just houserule it."

The second attempts to make various arguments that UNLESS the rule is perfect, then THE RULE DOESN'T APPLY. Now, notice how these individuals (you are one of them) doesn't do the following-

State that the rule is poorly implemented, and therefor propose a solution to implement it, such as:

"If a druid attempts to wear metal armor, or use a metal shield, then he or she shall lose the ability to cast any druid spells; such loss is complete the instant the action is taken to wear metal armor or use a metal shield. Should this use continue, further loss of class abilities will continue at the discretion of the DM, and if a druid willfully continues to wear metal armor or use a metal shield, the druid will be forced to abandon his or her class and adopt another.

VARIANT RULE: If a druid attempts to wear metal armor, or use a metal shield, then he or she shall spontaneously combust, taking fire damage of 10d20 per round until the metal armor and/or metal shield is removed."

There. Fixed. You should propose this to WoTC as errata.

That works on principle I guess, if they chose to commit to it on a mechanical level. As it stands, it's a lore holdover, but since lore is setting dependent, it's just... wearesgtrhdshdsgehrdnthswe5ythrtdyrhewy5htsrdnhsasehtnrdgthsaehtngrdxhsaewtrd

I'm just salty about Spore Druids because WHY DESIGN A GISH SUBCLASS IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE DEFENSES NECESSARY TO STAY ALIVE WHILE GISHING GIVE ME MY MUSHROOM SNORTING ZOMBIE RAISING GOLGARI HIPPY WITH ACTUAL DECENT AC PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Sacrosanct · Jun 21, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
In catholic teaching recent rulings override older ones. And the church has long taught that a priest who breaks their vows but repents is forgiven. In fact, it has often gone the other way (largely due to a shortage of priests), a priest who completely rejects the church, marries and has a family remains, in the eyes of the Church a priest. They cannot choose to stop being a priest no matter what they do.

Of course, if you rule that a character who is no called a druid cannot have the powers of a druid, then it clearly follows that a character who is not a Japanese noble cannot be a Samurai.

Nope. It’s a rule that if you get married or have sex, you go through Laicization. And it’s followed more often than not. Laicization Is also often done per the priests choice (like when they want to get married). So you’re wrong on that as well.

Me, raised Roman Catholic...

Oofta · Jun 21, 2019

Psyzhran2357 said:
matsifYesterday at 11:19 AM

the metal stuff for druids should be ignored. the celts were great bronze workers and the druid is mostly based on them, the whole "no metal" thing is silly at best.
...snip a bunch of quotes from somewhere...