D&D 5E Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?

Xodis · Jul 9, 2014

Lalato said:
A CG Paladin makes a lot of sense. A champion of freedom. A hero of the oppressed. A scourge of slavers and tyrants. Her CG aligned god(dess) grants powers in order to promote those things she cares about.

Then why have focused Evil fighting powers then? Your primary enemy seems to be the establishment not evil itself, there may be Evil tyrants, but youre not a fan of the Noble Politicians either. If you're Chaotic, your "Code" is just a guideline really, so what sets you apart from any other freedom fighter? Why do you even need DIVINE power to be a freedom fighter? As a CG god, why am I favoring you over my Rangers who are probably much better at performing that duty?

One persons freedom fighter is another terrorist.

Charles Wright · Jul 9, 2014

Why do LG paladins have focused fight evil powers? Because they're GOOD. They don't have powers that force people to line up like good little soldiers, do they? No. Because GOOD fights EVIL.

You are focusing far too much on that word "chaotic".

From the Basic PDF:

"Chaotic Good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect."

I don't see anything in that description talking about how chaotic they are, but rather how their chaotic outlook colors how they approach being Good.

Xodis · Jul 9, 2014

Charles Wright said:
Why do LG paladins have focused fight evil powers? Because they're GOOD. They don't have powers that force people to line up like good little soldiers, do they? No. Because GOOD fights EVIL.

You are focusing far too much on that word "chaotic".

From the Basic PDF:

"Chaotic Good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect."

I don't see anything in that description talking about how chaotic they are, but rather how their chaotic outlook colors how they approach being Good.

The focused abilities of combating evil may be wasted on this character though, because this GOOD character isn't fighting EVIL exclusively, but defending freedom. A Paladin is made for the battle of GOOD vs. EVIL, not GOOD vs. THE MAN.

Im not focusing on Chaotic, I'm focusing on the lack of the word Lawful, because to prevent corruption (like the Paladin is suppose to be) you need to be determined and have a guide aka rules or a code. A god who would bless a character with the powers of the Paladin EXPECTS certain things, but a Chaotic Good character by the basic PDF you referenced wouldn't care at all for what he expects, so again why would the God give him these powers?

TwoSix · Jul 9, 2014

Halivar said:
None of those are chaotic principles (indeed, the very idea of "principles" is inherently lawful). That sounds like a LG paladin to me. And any paladin in my game that did NOT uphold those principles would lose their powers.

That sounds like a Good (any ethos) cleric to me. The point of the paladin (according to the multi-edition fluff) is that they have innate divine abilities from their devotion to The Cause, whatever it may be.

Which again devolves into another discussion of "What does each alignment even mean?", which then means players at the same table can have completely different takes on whether a character can actually be a paladin or not. I mean, the character [MENTION=9327]Halivar[/MENTION] just described as LG was the character [MENTION=9171]Lalato[/MENTION] used as a paragon of CG!

That leads to a situation where [MENTION=9327]Halivar[/MENTION] comes to the table with a cool idea for a paladin who fights off the scourge of tyranny and frees oppressed slaves, and [MENTION=9171]Lalato[/MENTION] says "Sorry, man, that's a chaotic character, can't be a paladin". (Not that I think Lalato actually runs that way, this is purely hypothetical.)

To my mind, I'd restrict the paladin to any good and LN. Gives the idea that the paladin is supposed to be a champion of civilization and the common folk, but allows for some freedom as to how the player might want to express it.

Charles Wright · Jul 9, 2014

Xodis said:
The focused abilities of combating evil may be wasted on this character though, because this GOOD character isn't fighting EVIL exclusively, but defending freedom. A Paladin is made for the battle of GOOD vs. EVIL, not GOOD vs. THE MAN.

Im not focusing on Chaotic, I'm focusing on the lack of the word Lawful, because to prevent corruption (like the Paladin is suppose to be) you need to be determined and have a guide aka rules or a code. A god who would bless a character with the powers of the Paladin EXPECTS certain things, but a Chaotic Good character by the basic PDF you referenced wouldn't care at all for what he expects, so again why would the God give him these powers?

Again, you're imposing this "Chaotic Good = Antiestablishment" bias. you are focusing on the Chaotic. Since you refuse to even see what you're doing I will leave this discussion.

Halivar · Jul 9, 2014

TwoSix said:
Which again devolves into another discussion of "What does each alignment even mean?", which then means players at the same table can have completely different takes on whether a character can actually be a paladin or not. I mean, the character @Halivar just described as LG was the character @Lalato used as a paragon of CG!

At the table, it comes down to communication. I make it clear in my games that Lawful means you have an iron constitution, and are not subject to whims and fancies. People KNOW how you're going to react to stuff. Not saying that chaotic is bipolar, but it IS unpredictable. It's a chaotic personality, mercurial and unpredictable. To me, that is not a paladin's mindset.

If a DM has a different notion, then that has to be established from the get-go. As a frequent player of paladins, I would not play at a table where deposing an evil dictator was considered a chaotic act.

Charles Wright said:
Again, you're imposing this "Chaotic Good = Antiestablishment" bias. you are focusing on the Chaotic. Since you refuse to even see what you're doing I will leave this discussion.

Ironically, a LG paladin who sticks to his principles hard and fast enough becomes the really anti-establishment character.

Xodis · Jul 9, 2014

TwoSix said:
To my mind, I'd restrict the paladin to any good and LN. Gives the idea that the paladin is supposed to be a champion of civilization and the common folk, but allows for some freedom as to how the player might want to express it.

I agree that alignments can be discussed until the end of time and no one will ever agree, but I think what sets the Paladins apart is his focus on combating Evil.

He is a champion of the common folk for reasons other than liberty, although sometimes it is the same reason in the case of Evil Tyrants. His usefulness is in combating the things that go bump in the night, the things that common folk CANT rise up against, and defeating the creatures that destroy not the body but the spirit and soul. He fights the evil of the land, a PALADIN'S focus is evil in all forms simply.

Could any Good alignment have this same goal? Absolutely, but his Code, and restrictions to that code (LG) help protect him. It gives him the light at the end of a dark and spooky tunnel. Would a Paladin fight against slavery? Most definitely, but hes not going to be the best at it.

LN though, that's not a Paladin, that's a Law-keeper, Marshall, or whatever you call the Law, but that completely changes what a Paladin is suppose to be.

Xodis · Jul 9, 2014

Charles Wright said:
Again, you're imposing this "Chaotic Good = Antiestablishment" bias. you are focusing on the Chaotic. Since you refuse to even see what you're doing I will leave this discussion.

Chaotic Good isn't anti-establishment, I've said that, sorry if you didnt understand but that was the CG characters goals that was brought up in the earlier example.

TwoSix · Jul 9, 2014

Halivar said:
At the table, it comes down to communication. I make it clear in my games that Lawful means you have an iron constitution, and are not subject to whims and fancies. People KNOW how you're going to react to stuff. Not saying that chaotic is bipolar, but it IS unpredictable. It's a chaotic personality, mercurial and unpredictable. To me, that is not a paladin's mindset.

And I would have trouble playing with a DM who wouldn't allow a whimsical paladin. To my mind, alignment is about your ultimate intent, not personality traits.

And the idea that following a code is enough to make one lawful is an idea I find rather silly. What if your code is "Visit bloody vengenance on all landed aristocrats so that the peasantry will rise up and overthrow them." Or your code is a list of personal taboos like "I must paint every cow I see purple the day following a rainstorm". Doesn't matter how resolutely you follow that list, you're still chaotic to me.

Halivar · Jul 9, 2014

TwoSix said:
And I would have trouble playing with a DM who wouldn't allow a whimsical paladin. To my mind, alignment is about your ultimate intent, not personality traits.

Let me clarify. I have played playful, whimsical paladins. I've played paladins with a penchant for skirt-chasing. But all of them are absolutely, 100% deadly serious about their codes. They do not swerve from them, and they do not act against them. They do not tolerate any evil act performed around them. There is never an "I don't feel like it" day. To me, this is what Lawful is. Whimsical in downtime is one thing; it's when it matters that the difference in outlook comes under the purview of the alignment mechanics. Or, put another way, it's the fire that tests the mettle.

TwoSix said:
Or your code is a list of personal taboos like "I must paint every cow I see purple the day following a rainstorm". Doesn't matter how resolutely you follow that list, you're still chaotic to me.

LOL, I consider OCD lawful, even when it gets weird.

D&D 5E Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?

Are you unhappy about non-LG paladins?

No; in fact, it's a major selling point!

No; in fact, it's a minor selling point.

I don't care either way.

Yes; and it's a minor strike against 5e.

Yes; and it's a major strike against 5e!

My paladin uses a Motorola phone.

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