D&D 5E Supplemental books: Why the compulsion to buy and use, but complain about it?

transtemporal

Explorer
The fact that a DM can't say no to his partner is not a supplement book problem and believe me I wish it was as easy as saying no to certain books.

True, this particular instance wasn't a splatbook problem. It was more to do with the DM deciding what rules she wanted to run with, then sticking to it. In this case her partner got carried away with the Dark Sun books and decided he wanted to play a shadow giant. Hey, at least the campaign was dark sun...
 

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transtemporal

Explorer
what about when what you want to disallow isn't weird or out there?!?!?

There is often a misalignment of what players think is weird and what the DM thinks is weird. Some DMs will disallow a completely innocuous option only to allow some other totally off the wall option because thats what they personally like.

Pixies are a good example of this. DMs either loved or loathed this race in 3.5e (possibly the most broken attempt at a PC race ever). I forget what book it was. The one where you could take vampire levels (lol). Hell, I remember one 3.5e game where the DM wouldn't allow gnomes, halflings, dwarves or half-orcs but he would allow pixies. Which was kinda fine since it was a Fey-themed campaign where the opposing forces were called *ahem* 'Alliance' and 'Horde'. lol
 

Elf Witch

First Post
so where does compromise start?

lets look at what has been said (I'm totally not going back and quoting everyone) and imagine where a group or a game might be better.

lets start with why do people complain about splat books... well someone likes them and someone else doesn't... It isn't even always a DM vs Player thing... sometimes it's just Player vs player. Someone said they disliked Bo9S and what it ment to the setting. SO if that person sat down to play a paliden, and the person next to them a Crusader how does that affect the game?

Also as far as DMs go I remember something I read back when I was a kid about... "What the DM says goes, and if he says enough stupid stuff his players go too." Players aren't just players, they are the audience, and you have to give them what they want too. I'm not suggestion anything too huge, but some compromise is pretty easy.

Maybe instead of "My game I say so" the DM and player could talk it out like... gasp... reasonable adults, and find something in common.

Of course they should talk. And a good DM takes his players into consideration when planning things but the opposite is true too a good player takes int consideration what his DM is trying to do.

But I have seen players throw hissy fits because a DM does not allow a class or race. Even when the player has dozens more to choose from. That is not being a reasonable adult that is being a brat.

As for players not liking something else a another player is doing with a their character they need to shut up unless their character is being negatively affected. If they don't like a feat, class or race they can ban it when they DM. It is the DM job to help make sure conflicts don't happen. I don't allow any evil PCs and I won't allow a paladin in a party that is all chaotic neutral out for themselves. Like wise I won't allow a chaotic neutral out for himself in a party of lawful good hero types. The DM should be involved in the character creation process. I know I always am.

A lot of issues can be avoid if the DM and players communicate with each other. But at the end of the day it is the DMs world and he gets final say in what is allowed.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
True, this particular instance wasn't a splatbook problem. It was more to do with the DM deciding what rules she wanted to run with, then sticking to it. In this case her partner got carried away with the Dark Sun books and decided he wanted to play a shadow giant. Hey, at least the campaign was dark sun...

Playing with a partner can be tricky especially if they take advantage of that relationship to get what they want.
 

transtemporal

Explorer
As for players not liking something else a another player is doing with a their character they need to shut up unless their character is being negatively affected. If they don't like a feat, class or race they can ban it when they DM.

You're exactly right. Unfortunately, I'm totally guilty of this one when I play. Sometimes I forget I'm not DMing and object when the DM let's the monk get away with yet another outrageous violation of the rules. I'm just jealous of the monk and all his cool abilities really, lol.
 

pemerton

Legend
DM's fully have the right to disallow whatever they want
I place a lot of blame on the DMs. The PHB has Rule:0 ask the DM while the DMG tells the DM in several places that he or she is in charge of how the game is run at the table, which rules are used/followed, and which supplements in use.
I don't think the language of "right" is very helpful in this context. Against whom is the right held? Are we saying that players have obligations to do as the GM says?

I'm not sure talking about "blame" gets us very far either.

I agree with [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] and [MENTION=58401]doctorhook[/MENTION]: the relevant concepts are compromise and fun.

But, speaking as someone who didn't play 3e or 4e, it was a real shock coming back to the game... the entire culture has shifted from DM Fiat to Player Entitlement, at least going on forum culture

<snip>

in earlier editions, the DM was still the keeper of the rules, really, and I think that's a good thing for quite a few reasons. From what I've seen of 3e and 4e, the players are heavily involved in the crunch (I also appreciate that many players really like this).
Classic D&D and AD&D had virtually no PC build rules, but they had some. A fighter has to use weapons and armour; a magic-user has to choose spell load out on a daily basis; a 2nd ed AD&D thief player has to allocate skill percentiles.

I never saw GMs try and dictate weapon and armour choices, tell the MU player what spells to pick, tell the thief player how to allocate skills.

With the increase in build options - more classes, more races, more feats, etc - I think it's natural enough that players regard those options, and choices among them, as likewise being mostly up to them.

Classic D&D also has almost no action resolution mechanics, especially outside combat. (Gygax's DMG had fairly intricate social resolution mechanics, but I don't think they were widely used because somewhat opaque and scattered across multiple sections.) But where the mechanics existed, I think they were mostly used: GMs didn't regularly substitute their own judgements for players' d20 rolls, nor change the damage dice for fireball spells.

So I think it's also natural enough that, as the game developed more extensive rules for action resolution, that players assumed that the GM would apply those rules.

There are nuances, too. In classic D&D, a GM might make a secret door harder to find than 1 in 6 (and Gygax canvasses this in his DMG); or make a door harder to open than the standard STR chance. But the expectation, I think, was that the players would easily link this to the fiction (eg the GM might describe the door as very heavy or stuck; the secret door, when discovered, might be described as well-hidden).

But consider the setting of DCs for Diplomacy attempts in 3E (putting to one side the bigger issue that the Diplomacy rules are fundamentally hopeless). The GM will be influenced by all sorts of considerations of NPC backstory that the players probably don't know, and more significantly will often never know, or have any way of knowing.

This is a recipe for conflict. And it's interesting to see how the 5e designers try to diffuse this in the 5e social mechanics, via Insight checks to learn NPC motivations, thus reducing the inherently secret nature of this sort of backstory.

Every example that Player A offered was some form of special snowflake that was going to have impacts throughout the game simply by its presence.
What I don't get is when the trope emerged that the PCs are just another group of schmos. When the game started, every PC was the first/only of his/her kind - the first thief, the first ranger, the first dual-wielder, the first baby balrog, etc.
 

BryonD

Hero
What I don't get is when the trope emerged that the PCs are just another group of schmos. When the game started, every PC was the first/only of his/her kind - the first thief, the first ranger, the first dual-wielder, the first baby balrog, etc.
Your opinion is noted. I'm not sure I acknowledge your authority on "when the game first started". And I would rather distinctly reject that the attitude of "Player A" would have lasted 5 seconds at a table run by the guy who wrote a lot of the early on Gary columns.

I also reject the straw man claim of "just another group of schmos". There is a hell of a lot of between that and the Player A examples. It is actually kind of funny that I post about the need for neither side to be extreme and your reaction is to replace one extreme I pointed out with a false claim that I've supported an opposite extreme. You have pretty much provided an example of how to not resolve this type of conflict at the table.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
I don't think the language of "right" is very helpful in this context. Against whom is the right held? Are we saying that players have obligations to do as the GM says?

I'm not sure talking about "blame" gets us very far either.

lassic D&D and AD&D hadI agree with [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] and [MENTION=58401]doctorhook[/MENTION]: the relevant concepts are compromise and fun.

C virtually no PC build rules, but they had some. A fighter has to use weapons and armour; a magic-user has to choose spell load out on a daily basis; a 2nd ed AD&D thief player has to allocate skill percentiles.

I never saw GMs try and dictate weapon and armour choices, tell the MU player what spells to pick, tell the thief player how to allocate skills.

With the increase in build options - more classes, more races, more feats, etc - I think it's natural enough that players regard those options, and choices among them, as likewise being mostly up to them.

Classic D&D also has almost no action resolution mechanics, especially outside combat. (Gygax's DMG had fairly intricate social resolution mechanics, but I don't think they were widely used because somewhat opaque and scattered across multiple sections.) But where the mechanics existed, I think they were mostly used: GMs didn't regularly substitute their own judgements for players' d20 rolls, nor change the damage dice for fireball spells.

So I think it's also natural enough that, as the game developed more extensive rules for action resolution, that players assumed that the GM would apply those rules.

There are nuances, too. In classic D&D, a GM might make a secret door harder to find than 1 in 6 (and Gygax canvasses this in his DMG); or make a door harder to open than the standard STR chance. But the expectation, I think, was that the players would easily link this to the fiction (eg the GM might describe the door as very heavy or stuck; the secret door, when discovered, might be described as well-hidden).

But consider the setting of DCs for Diplomacy attempts in 3E (putting to one side the bigger issue that the Diplomacy rules are fundamentally hopeless). The GM will be influenced by all sorts of considerations of NPC backstory that the players probably don't know, and more significantly will often never know, or have any way of knowing.

This is a recipe for conflict. And it's interesting to see how the 5e designers try to diffuse this in the 5e social mechanics, via Insight checks to learn NPC motivations, thus reducing the inherently secret nature of this sort of backstory.

What I don't get is when the trope emerged that the PCs are just another group of schmos. When the game started, every PC was the first/only of his/her kind - the first thief, the first ranger, the first dual-wielder, the first baby balrog, etc.

There is another side of this as well though. While no player needs to be obligated to the DM the reverse is true too the DM is to put it rather bluntly not the players bitch. I have seen players do this, a DM comes and says I want to run a so and so campaign and these are my ideas. The players go sounds fantastic I want to play. So say that DM is upfront that he wants only good aligned characters and here comes a player who has said yes I want to play in your game about heroes and my character is a drow assassin cleric of Vecna. Then when the DM says no the player whines about how unfair it is and goes and whines on forums about the mean DM who think he is god and how players matter too. Then the old saw gets trotted out about how a DM is nothing without his players. Well you know a player is nothing without a DM.

Players fun matters but so does the DM deserves to have a good time too. The players are under no obligation to play in a DM campaign if they don't think it sounds fun but they really should be upfront about it instead of trying to get to have things the way they prefer it.

I play mostly 3.5 and Pathfinder and I have never seen a DM dictate what armor, spells or weapons a PC can choose when building his character. I have seen spells banned and other things banned but I saw that back in classic DnD too.

I played hundred of hours in 1 and 2E and I rarely saw us as being the first of a kind. And yet we were not schmoes once we got a few levels under our belts.
 

transtemporal

Explorer
...the DM is to put it rather bluntly not the players bitch.

I absolutely agree but I also think its in the DMs best interests to make sure the players understand the genre, tone, ruleset and power level that the campaign will use and some examples of famous characters in TV, Movies or Books that would be appropriate to the setting. That way the players have got some definite guidelines and if they turn up to your Anime Teddy Ruxpin with the drow cleric of Vecna, you can say "In what universe is a Drow Cleric of Vecna similar to Teddy Ruxpin at all?"

You never know though... if the answer was good and/or funny enough and the group agreed, I might allow it. :)
 

Sailor Moon

Banned
Banned
I just want to focus real quick on the whole concept of compromise. You can't just solve an argument by declaring compromise. If I don't get what I want but you do then that is not compromise. Now the DM has the advantage here because the other players could be all set to play the DM's proposal while you may not. If I write a specific campaign and I'm only going to allow specific things then I don't budge. I would rather just not run the game.

Sometimes there is no compromise and I see that some here just can't accept that.
 

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