Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[gnfnrf]

Let's throw in the gauntlets to your test and assume a 4[W] power.

+6 Maul = 8d6 (2-6/die) = 4 avg/per * 8 + 6 = 38

+6 Vorpal Falchion = 8d4
2 rolls of "4" giving +2d4
2 rolls of "1"'s giving a 66% of +1d4 on rerolls
the 3d4 have a 99% of 1d4

So 8d4 just became 11-12d4 (2-4/die) 3 avg/per * 11.5 + 6 = 40.5

So the Vorpal falchion is now superior to the Maul. So a weapon that started out with a top end of "8" damage is better than a weapon that started with a top end of "12".

So, under near ideal circumstances (Gauntlets of Destruction, 4[W] attack) and with a demonstrably better weapon (vorpal vs. nonvorpal), the falchion, which started 2 points behind on average damage, has snuck out to 2.5 points ahead.

I'm not concerned.

--
gnfnrf

 

[IanB]

So, under near ideal circumstances (Gauntlets of Destruction, 4[W] attack) and with a demonstrably better weapon (vorpal vs. nonvorpal), the falchion, which started 2 points behind on average damage, has snuck out to 2.5 points ahead.

I'm not concerned.

--
gnfnrf

Yeah I'm not really seeing the issue here. A vanilla +6 weapon is worse than a +6 vorpal one? Stop the presses. And remember, the vorpal weapon is 3 times as expensive as the vanilla one.

Heck we can probably just wait until the Adventurer's Vault book comes out, and when we can have a +6 maul of thunderbolts or whatever, it will all work out.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Let's throw in the gauntlets to your test and assume a 4[W] power.

Throwing the gauntlets in changes things, obviously.

Without the guantlets, a Maul delivers and average 28+bonuses damage on a 4[W], while a vorpal falchion would deliver an average 26.64. Like I said, slightly less.

The Gauntlets, IIRC, allow a single re-roll, not a re-roll until you don't get a one or anything, so they substitute average damage for a roll of 1, thus average damage on a d6 while wearing those gauntlets is 3.9166. With a d4, 2.875. Assuming the guantlets don't affect the Vorpal re-rolls, that's 3.708 for a vorpal d4, still not as good as the non-vorpal d6. Now, if the gauntlets /do/ affect the vorpal re-roll dice, it becomes about 3.9133, making the vorpal falchion about equal to the non-vorpal maul, when both get the guantlets.

Again, considering the level of Vorpal and the fact that the falchion represents the /best/ you can do with it, that's not even impressive, let alone imbalancing.

But, rolling that big handfull of dice, then re-rolling some of them is a lot of fun for certain types of players, plus, the vorpal will occassionally 'explode' and do huge damage, so it's worth it even though, on average, it's not all that.

 

[Obryn]

Woefully underpowered how please? It's avg. damage is 5 compared to 5.5 for a d10 weapon or 6.5 d12 weapon. All brackets have their lowest/highest damage dealers, what's wrong with comparing it to a longsword also with a top end of 8.

Why would you compare a 2-handed falchion to a 1-handed longsword?

-O

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Throwing the gauntlets in changes things, obviously.

Without the guantlets, a Maul delivers and average 28+bonuses damage on a 4[W], while a vorpal falchion would deliver an average 26.64. Like I said, slightly less.

The Gauntlets, IIRC, allow a single re-roll, not a re-roll until you don't get a one or anything, so they substitute average damage for a roll of 1, thus average damage on a d6 while wearing those gauntlets is 3.9166. With a d4, 2.875. Assuming the guantlets don't affect the Vorpal re-rolls, that's 3.708 for a vorpal d4, still not as good as the non-vorpal d6. Now, if the gauntlets /do/ affect the vorpal re-roll dice, it becomes about 3.9133, making the vorpal falchion about equal to the non-vorpal maul, when both get the guantlets.

Again, considering the level of Vorpal and the fact that the falchion represents the /best/ you can do with it, that's not even impressive, let alone imbalancing.

But, rolling that big handfull of dice, then re-rolling some of them is a lot of fun for certain types of players, plus, the vorpal will occassionally 'explode' and do huge damage, so it's worth it even though, on average, it's not all that.

The gauntlets do require rerolling until no more one's come up. Does that affect the math a great deal?

 

[DemonLord57]

The gauntlets do require rerolling until no more one's come up. Does that affect the math a great deal?

Yes, it does. The average damage for a 1d4 with both Vorpal and the Gauntlets of Destruction is... 4.5. Yes, the average damage is higher than the max damage. Fun

I don't understand what all of the fuss is about, though. I mean, yes, it increases your damage, but not ridiculously so. Much of your damage comes from your modifiers, enhancement bonuses, and bonuses to damage rolls. I'd say that people should complain about class balance issues before this. Like why the Ranger is so ridiculously powerful in terms of damage dealing. Multiple attacks + bonuses to damage rolls = Ow.

 

[Mirtek]

Max damage is 8 for the weapon rules lawyering it won't change that fact.

Rules lawyering doesn't even need to try to dispute this fact, because this fact is 100% irrelevant.

The vorpal enchantment doesn't mention max weapon damage at all, max weapon damage is 100% irrelevant to the vorpal enchantment

Sorry it took a while to stop laughing. The fact that 95% of the weapons in the PHB use a SINGLE die for damage doesn't lead you think that maybe just maybe they meant max damage from the die or 5% of time dice.

Since the explicitly continued with roll that die they meant to reroll single dies out of severalm dice

 

[Ibixat]

Yes, it does. The average damage for a 1d4 with both Vorpal and the Gauntlets of Destruction is... 4.5. Yes, the average damage is higher than the max damage. Fun

I don't understand what all of the fuss is about, though. I mean, yes, it increases your damage, but not ridiculously so. Much of your damage comes from your modifiers, enhancement bonuses, and bonuses to damage rolls. I'd say that people should complain about class balance issues before this. Like why the Ranger is so ridiculously powerful in terms of damage dealing. Multiple attacks + bonuses to damage rolls = Ow.

hmm ranger issue is probably because without doing more damage it's just a fighter with crappier defense, wouldn't really fit a striker role at that point.

 

[Andur]

Jabba, die is singular, always and forever, as soon as you roll more than one it becomes dice. It really is that simple, 100% of the time die refers to a singular object, doesn't matter what the breakdown of the weapon damage is.

 

[Sceadeau]

Let's throw in the gauntlets to your test and assume a 4[W] power.

+6 Maul = 8d6 (2-6/die) = 4 avg/per * 8 + 6 = 38

+6 Vorpal Falchion = 8d4
2 rolls of "4" giving +2d4
2 rolls of "1"'s giving a 66% of +1d4 on rerolls
the 3d4 have a 99% of 1d4

So 8d4 just became 11-12d4 (2-4/die) 3 avg/per * 11.5 + 6 = 40.5

So the Vorpal falchion is now superior to the Maul. So a weapon that started out with a top end of "8" damage is better than a weapon that started with a top end of "12".

Couple of points. I don't really like comparing a non Vorpal to a Vorpal but since you used it I figured to go with it. Also you can probably give the maul a enhancement that gives it extra damage so it would probably do a bit more.

Jabba,

Your math is speculative. That's not how math works. Guessing + math = making things up.

The actual math states that a vorpal fachion is only better than a vorpal greataxe when you add the gloves of rerolling 1s. And even then, only by a couple of points. Without those gloves, the d12 is always better than the d4.


Using the actual math, let's compare a +6 greataxe vs +6 falchion, using your 4[W] scenario.

Without Vorpal:

Greataxe: 32
Falcion: 26


Both Vorpal:

Greataxe: 34.36
Facion: 32.66


Both Vorpal + Gloves of rerolling 1s:

Greataxe: 36.8
Falction: 42

You can find the math needed to do these calculations on: http://www.rpg.net/columns/rollthebones/rollthebones2.phtml