Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Destil]

Sorry. D&D, despite claims to the contrary, is not an MMO yet. The classes aren't overspecialized to the point they are required to rely on a single power. The cleric having some good AoE is fine. Otherwise why would they even take their area powers? If you're getting a power is should be good enough. And some outliers where you may have a power that's slightly better than someone who focuses in that role are a good thing. It means the system hasn't forced everyone to just do the one 'good' thing they are allowed to do over and over.

I'm surprised some of the higher level ranger archery powers have yet to be mentioned...

 

[Plane Sailing]

The cleric having some good AoE is fine. Otherwise why would they even take their area powers?

The cleric having some good AoE is fine.

The cleric have some AoE spells which spank wizard AoE spells at equivalent levels is the problem.

 

[Ahglock]

Sorry. D&D, despite claims to the contrary, is not an MMO yet. The classes aren't overspecialized to the point they are required to rely on a single power. The cleric having some good AoE is fine. Otherwise why would they even take their area powers? If you're getting a power is should be good enough. And some outliers where you may have a power that's slightly better than someone who focuses in that role are a good thing. It means the system hasn't forced everyone to just do the one 'good' thing they are allowed to do over and over.

I'm surprised some of the higher level ranger archery powers have yet to be mentioned...

Why did tensers transformation disappear again?

Heck tensers is fine in comparison to these cleric spells because you transform into a inferior fighter and lose access to your spells. These spells go past the wizard equivalents. Apparently the 4e designers think its cool to step on a niches toes when its the wizards toes being stepped on.

Do I want overspecialization, well no. And yes it is fine for a cleric and heck basically every other class to have some AoEs, which they basically all do. But, unless the class is another controller the AoEs should not equal the wizards in damage.

 

[Destil]

But a controller doesn't just do damage. Just like a fighter isn't some WoW Warrior who contributes only trivial damage to a fight while soaking 100% of the hits.

Every class dabbles in other areas: Fighters deal great damage while Paladins soak hits for allies and heal. Clerics can either melee and deal and soak good damage in the front line, or stand back and blast as their healing.

The big advantage of the wizard as a controller is with proper planning he gets to choose the right spell for the job. Either of their level 19 ranged AoEs can be far better at shaping a battlefield if utilized properly. And if the wizard really wants damage there's acid blast. Clerics choose flamestrike and have to stick with it unless they retrain. The wizard gets to choose two (or three) and go with what's best for the day.

Why did tensers transformation disappear again?

Heck tensers is fine in comparison to these cleric spells because you transform into a inferior fighter and lose access to your spells. These spells go past the wizard equivalents. Apparently the 4e designers think its cool to step on a niches toes when its the wizards toes being stepped on.

I really agree with you here, though. Tenser's and a melee polymorph spell or two would have been fine for the wizard.

 

[Goumindong]

AoE damage is the wizards thing, the cleric a leader should not be exceeding or even equaling that damage especially when it comes with the auto no friendly fire mode.

So i guess Shield makes Clerics obsolete and should be nerfed?

AoE damage is not the sole reign of wizards, not even control is. All classes meld slightly between defending, controlling, striking, and leading. Wizards gets some striking(mainly AoE striking), rangers get some defending, rogues get some leading, fighters get some striking, and controlling, warlords get some defending and controlling, clerics get some controlling.

Its the "some" part that is important. Just because a cleric has a power that is slightly better at AoE damage than the Wizard is no cause for alarm. Great, he can pick one AoE damage power over a power that keeps him and his friends alive.

 

[Goumindong]

The cleric having some good AoE is fine.

The cleric have some AoE spells which spank wizard AoE spells at equivalent levels is the problem.

What spell are you talking about? I haven't found it yet.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Targets: Firestorm wins this category hands down, as the only one of the three that won't hit allies. Cloudkill comes in a distant second, as the wizard will have the opportunity to move it off of any allies before they begin their turn in it.

That was a pretty good analysis.

I'd just add that by level 20, just one level later, wizard have access to the feat Spell Accuracy.

By that point, most wizard will have taken it and be able to exclude at least one ore two square form the area of effect which is usually enough to catch all the enmies you want without hurting your defenders. It is so useful that the designers probably should have made it a class feature.

Anyway, in practice, by the level 20 you can read all wizard spells as 'Target Enemies only' too.

 

[Goumindong]

Except that those wont spare a moving friendly.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

You mean, like the wizard?

Also, if doing AoE damage is what makes a controller a controller, the Wizard wins hands down.

E.G. Bigbys Grasping hands, 4d10+int to two enemies AND it grabs them as a MOVE action per round. Daily

Prismatic Beams: 4d6+2x int + 4d10 + control(save ends) + 10+4d10 ongoing(save ends), Burst 5.

Wall of Ice: 2d6+2d10+int/round + 2d6+2d10 against anything that attacks it.

Frostburn: 3d6+2d10+int+5 AOE; Encounter: W/ Orb ability 3d6+4d10+int+10

Evards Black Tentacles: 4d10 + int + Control(save ends) +3d10 + int/round on controlled + 4d10+int+control(save ends) on anything entering or leaving the area.

Necrotic Web: 4d6+2d10+int + Immobilized + Difficult terrain + 4d6+2d10/ongoing with no save if starting in the web + immob for any creature ending its turn in the web

No one is arguing that the wizard can't control or that he can't lay down some damage. In fact, thats just about all he can do.

The issue is that a cleric has a better AoE striking option over a wizard at some given level/s.

So i guess Shield makes Clerics obsolete and should be nerfed?

I think we can find at least a couple level 2 cleric utilities that are superior to Shield.

AoE damage is not the sole reign of wizards, not even control is. All classes meld slightly between defending, controlling, striking, and leading. Wizards gets some striking(mainly AoE striking)... clerics get some controlling.

And clerics get AoE striking powers too, sometimes even better than what a wizard can choose from.

Just because a cleric has a power that is slightly better at AoE damage than the Wizard is no cause for alarm. Great, he can pick one AoE damage power over a power that keeps him and his friends alive.

And lets point out absurdity with absurdity.

*absurdity start*

Wizards should get a couple AoE heal/buff powers. In fact, the powers should be better than what the cleric gets at the same level, but only by a little bit.

If anybody complains about the new superior wizard AoE heal/buff powers I'll just state that:
1. That the cleric has 15 heal/buff powers and the wizard only has 2
2. That the cleric can lay down 6 powers that can heal 700 hit points and buff all defenses by 5 points.
3. That the cleric heals are only slightly inferior to the wizard heals
4. That all classes do the meld thingy
5. That by choosing a heal/buff power, the wizard is not choosing a control power, and therefore he's not controlling the battlefield.
6. And that it's only one maybe two heal/buff powers. (That's only like 25% of his total daily/encounter potential... big deal!!!)

And for those reasons it's OK for a wizard to have (a couple) better heals than a cleric...

*absurdity over*

No one is saying that the cleric shouldn't AoE strike at all. What we are saying that he shouldn't do it better than a wizard... not even once.

Unless you are a believer that wizards should be allowed to AoE heal/buff better than a cleric... at least once.

Should they?

 

[DLichen]

Wizards have the best utility buff at level 6 - invisibility

All cleric powers at level 6 heal.