Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[Imaro]

Really? I doubt there's been any studies done on this, but can you provide any kind of base for this (even personal experience)? This is very interesting to me.

No, no studies but ancedotally, I know I can sit down and discuss Avatar with both my younger brothers (who have also seen LotR) as well as my nieces and nephews (who couldn't at their age sit through or appreciate LotR). I may have overstated them being equal, but I do find it telling that CTHD grossed more domestically than Eragon, King Arthur, and Beowulf . I think most people aren't hung up on culture but moreso on an actual good fantasy tale.

Does anyone think that Drizzt is so popular because his skin is black? I'd think that were Drizzt from a light-skinned evil culture he'd still be just as popular . . . but maybe that's just me and my preferences in plot.

No, but I did find it a disconnect when I first started playing D&D that these were the only elves that were dark-skined and they were EVIL, especially after I discovered Earthdawn where those type of silly skin color restrictions didn't apply to the human or demi-human races.

SIDE NOTE: Well we may get a chance to see if you're theory is true since the Shadar-kai seem to be the shiny newness when it comes to fey evilness in D&D.

 

[Cadfan]

Diversity is an attribute of science fiction, but it is not something created by science fiction. You couldn't go and create true diversity in science fiction by trying to create it. Diversity is an attribute of having diverse creators which naturally arise without any need for conscious acts of creating diversity in a multiethnic society. You can't artificially create it, and in fact, the act of artificially selecting for something destroys the intended goal.

That's silly, and also denies a lot of the efforts of certain science fiction authors in the 60s and 70s, who put quite a lot of effort into subversively adding diversity to their books just so that they could make their readers uncomfortable with their own racism.

Honestly, that's the whole lousy point of Starship Troopers. Its an extended effort by an author with a white, violent-libertarian readership to make them sympathize and embrace a character who embodies the whole of their fantasies, and then to add far, far into the text that the character wasn't white.

 

[S'mon]

Uhm both dungeons and dragons, in a generic sense are found in a much wider range of cultures than medieval europe. Call of Cthulhu has expanded to include modern day, the dark ages and even the future. You know we gamers talk about evolving the game so it can stay competitive from a mechanics perspective, even so far as changing the games mechanical base assumptions... yet it is wrong somehow to tweak it's default flavor to be more inclusive of other ethnicities and cultures.

I'm not against tweaks - as Delta Green tweaks Call of Cthulu, as Oriental Adventures tweaked D&D, etc. Indeed, as Midnight tweaked D&D. My point is that both D&D and CoC have pretty strong default tropes, and they're part of what define the game. For D&D it's medieval European-looking castles, plate armour, griffons and dragons (D&D dragons are very much European-inspired in their looks, not Indian, Chinese, or African, though I think most medieval depictions gave them 2 legs like a D&D wyvern). You can depart from those tropes, but if you discard them entirely you're discarding part of the flavour of the game.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not against tweaks - as Delta Green tweaks Call of Cthulu, as Oriental Adventures tweaked D&D, etc. Indeed, as Midnight tweaked D&D. My point is that both D&D and CoC have pretty strong default tropes, and they're part of what define the game. For D&D it's medieval European-looking castles, plate armour, griffons and dragons (D&D dragons are very much European-inspired in their looks, not Indian, Chinese, or African, though I think most medieval depictions gave them 2 legs like a D&D wyvern). You can depart from those tropes, but if you discard them entirely you're discarding part of the flavour of the game.

Maybe I'm not clear on what you are trying to convey, so if this is off base let me know. But Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and others are D&D settings that have non-whites as plausible, so where is the breakdown if these peoples of imaginary fantasy worlds are depicted as such? I almost feel like you are arguing your interpretation of what default D&D is, instead of what the actual products present in writing.

 

[S'mon]

.But each of these get only a paragraph at most in the core books. Can you imagine the outcry if non-European human cultures were included but only as a paragraph? That's what splats are for . . .

Hmm, check out OGL Conan. As I recall the different human races & ethnicities do get approximately a paragraph each. Cimmerians get an INT penalty, which may be Mongoose Ltd's prejudice against the Irish or Welsh (j/k).

 

[S'mon]

Maybe I'm not clear on what you are trying to convey, so if this is off base let me know. But Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and others are D&D settings that have non-whites as plausible, so where is the breakdown if these peoples of imaginary fantasy worlds are depicted as such? I almost feel like you are arguing your interpretation of what default D&D is, instead of what the actual products present in writing.

I was talking about the default quasi-European quasi-medieval implied setting of default D&D, which is the setting of most of the Flanaess (the Greyhawk continent), of the core Forgotten Realms area (the Dales, Cormyr, Sword Coast etc). Eberron's setting is quasi-European but quasi-1920s rather than medieval. But I was talking about culture, I wasn't arguing that individual non-white PCs are not plausible in these settings. Ember in Greyhawk can be a Touv Monk, the Asiatic looking wizard in Forgotten Realms can hail from Kara-Tur or the Tuigan lands, etc. Fine by me.

 

[Seonaid]

http://www.infinitematrix.net/faq/essays/noles.html

Thank you for the link. The secondary post she wrote was great.

I may have overstated them being equal, but I do find it telling that CTHD grossed more domestically than Eragon, King Arthur, and Beowulf .

What is CTHD?

No, but I did find it a disconnect when I first started playing D&D that these were the only elves that were dark-skined and they were EVIL, especially after I discovered Earthdawn where those type of silly skin color restrictions didn't apply to the human or demi-human races.

I didn't. :shrug: I'm not black, though. I sure as heck NOTICE it, but it doesn't bother me, and it doesn't shape my opinion of any dark(er)-skinned people I know.

Hmm, check out OGL Conan. As I recall the different human races & ethnicities do get approximately a paragraph each. Cimmerians get an INT penalty, which may be Mongoose Ltd's prejudice against the Irish or Welsh (j/k).

Yeah, everyone knows the Scots are far superior. I basically know 3.x and Vampire, so I've no knowledge of Conan. Do they have other races (dwarves, elves, etc.) also? Also also, do all of the races and ethnicities of each get the same amount of space?

 

[Imaro]

Thank you for the link. The secondary post she wrote was great.What is CTHD?

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon...

I didn't. :shrug: I'm not black, though. I sure as heck NOTICE it, but it doesn't bother me, and it doesn't shape my opinion of any dark(er)-skinned people I know.

It doesn't bother me... now. When I first got into AD&D it did, especially since their were no provisions for anything but Drow for a dark-skinned elf. The dilemmna I find in being made aware that a more diverse range of ethnicities in artwork was frowned upon... is that to be aware of something is to make your decisions with a consciousness about what those decisions mean.

By having spent my money on 3e as opposed to more on Exalted, or Earthdawn am I reaffirming their belief that diversity in artwork will negatively impact sales figures... or even that it's not an important issue since I as a black man bought it anyway. If so that's not the message I would want to send.

This is complicated by the fact that this information came to my attention after everything was said and done, and there is no way to know if this type of thinking is still prevalent at WotC or not with 4e.

 

[S'mon]

TYeah, everyone knows the Scots are far superior. I basically know 3.x and Vampire, so I've no knowledge of Conan. Do they have other races (dwarves, elves, etc.) also? Also also, do all of the races and ethnicities of each get the same amount of space?

Scots - indeed (I was born in Edinburgh).

No nonhuman races in Conan. I think the dominant Hyboreans get a bit more space than the other races - Shemites, Kushites, Cimmerians, Picts, Turanians etc.

 

[S'mon]

Going back to the thread title, cool artwork I think does make me more likely to want to play a character like the one depicted. Cheesy art may be a turn off, likewise. So cool depictions of female or non-white or non-human characters may make me want to play those. OTOH I want to see the stereotypical Conanesque white male barbarian with greatsword also. I didn't like how in 3e it seemed all the barbarians were half-orcs.