Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[mhacdebhandia]

I like those defaults. Anyway, if you get rid of them you need different defaults

I absolutely disagree that Dungeons & Dragons depends on pseudo-medieval Eurocentric tropes. Absolutely.

 

[S'mon]

No, it derives from the fact that IQ tests were invented by Europeans to administer to other Europeans.

But east-Asians do better than Europeans, and Europeans better than others, on average. The argument is that north-east-Asians have the highest IQ due to selective pressure in an Ice Age high latitude arctic environment, Europeans next highest due to Ice Age sub-arctic arboreal environment, etc. Like I said, I'm unconvinced as I don't think the evidence is strong for all significant human evolution being back in the Ice Age.

 

[Imaro]

I've tended towards the anti-Diversity side here, but my favourite ever PC Zana Than was a black female human Sarcosan Ironborn Fighter in the Midnight setting. The art was a bit ambiguous as to what Sarcosans looked like, but they were dark skinned descendants of a mighty cosmopolitan empire so I saw them as a mix of African and Persian physically, with culture a mix of Byzantine and Persian, maybe some Arabic. I think Midnight is an example of cultures handled very well - the Sarcosans, Dorn and others all felt very real.

This is interesting that you bring Midnight up, because it also has dark-skinned elves (that are not evil chaotics or loner rebels of good fighting against their races "natural" behavior). This post also made me realize that I am more drawn to settings with diversity than those without it. Exalted, Earthdawn, Midnight, Iron Kingdoms, Eberron, etc. Now notice I didn't say a purely african, or purely asian setting either... I really enjoy diversity and it may be because my gaming group has never been majority white. My group when I was in college...
2 white guys, a black guy (besides me), and two black women (one from the the states and one from England).

My current group is 3 black men and one black woman, all american.

I like those defaults. Anyway, if you get rid of them you need different defaults - or create a purely generic game, which wouldn't be D&D as neither dungeons nor dragons are generic. I like other games' defaults too, like Call of Cthulu's bookish investigators in 1920s New England, or Anime's pink-haired teenagers with super powers (not thinking of a specific game).

Uhm both dungeons and dragons, in a generic sense are found in a much wider range of cultures than medieval europe. Call of Cthulhu has expanded to include modern day, the dark ages and even the future. You know we gamers talk about evolving the game so it can stay competitive from a mechanics perspective, even so far as changing the games mechanical base assumptions... yet it is wrong somehow to tweak it's default flavor to be more inclusive of other ethnicities and cultures.

 

[Imaro]

To any interested, here's a link that I know hits pretty close to home as far as my experiences and thoughts about fantasy and diversity. It's an interesting read that may shed some insight into why this is an important thing to be aware of and push for.

http://www.infinitematrix.net/faq/essays/noles.html

 

[mmadsen]

I really don't care if the setting is pseudo-european or not. It's being written in 2008, and it should reflect our current value system.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. I do not want my D&D full of liberal democracies populated by members of every race who share the same modern, progressive values.

 

[Seonaid]

Sheesh! I go away for less than 24 hours and the thread grows by 3 pages!

Obviously my milage does vary - in my experience (and yes I'm aware it is merely my perception of my experience) popular media tells us that people of different cultures are exactly the same as us, only with different clothes and food.

Right, so when they run into someone wildly different in media, they tend to append that view. Which is more memorable? The guy who acts and thinks like you and happens to look slightly different, or the guy who looks slightly different and has a completely different worldview? Stereotypes exist for a reason, and it's not because we're exposed to overwhelming amounts of media portraying people as the same but for physical differences.

But here you are equating tolerance with open-mindedness. Surely you'd agree that unquestioning acceptance of an ideology does not make one open-minded, no matter how noble that ideology seems to be on the surface.

Right. I apologize (completely sincerely) for being imprecise.

I would argue that Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Avatar the Last Airbender, and others are just as prevalent in the minds of fanatasy buffs (probably moreso in younger generations) as Lord of the Rings is.

Really? I doubt there's been any studies done on this, but can you provide any kind of base for this (even personal experience)? This is very interesting to me.

If you look at a picture of an adventuring party, you don't want to think "there's the mighty paladin, there's the cute sorceress chick, there's the hobbit and there's the black guy". Somehow the diversity should blend naturally into the other areas of excellent in the artwork, like theme, tone, composition, color, etc.

I think that the problem is not the picture but the viewer (duh). The question isn't, then, how do we make art that isn't as you describe, but how do we change cultural/societal standards so that what you describe isn't the immediate reaction. And, unfortunately, artwork in fantasy RPG books isn't going to do that.

Why is it that Asian, African, Middle Eastern, etc. types should be shoehorned into pseudo-european settings as if the complex and interesting cultures aren't as compelling as generic pseudo-european fantasy tropes?

<snip>

Some of this discussion seems based on a unconscious/unintentional assumption of cultural superiority in regards to Tolkienish fantasy Europe. Why isn't anyone saying that we should shoehorn caucasians into Kara-Tur, Asian types into Zhakara, or Native Americans into Nyambe? It would look utterly inauthentic and would destroy what makes for real diversity of the setting in general.

Don't be disingenuous. "Whites" are still dominant in Western culture. If it were the other way around (in any sense), then there WOULD be a push to "shoehorn" Caucasians into the setting.

That's certainly true, but I want to live in a world where someone's color is no barrier to identifying with them.

I don't think any of us here disagree (though I could be wrong, obviously). The problem is that we DON'T live in that world, yet. And until we do, we have discussions like this. It's a long, slow process, and for the most part we are doing the best that we can, with the tools with which we have been provided.

If we don't have these just so stories, then its pretty clear that the reason we have a dark-skinned ethnic group native to European inspired culture in a temperate climate has nothing to do with the setting, and everything to do with how we want to be percieved or accepted by observers of the setting.

Yes! Thank you.

Suppose an observer of that setting said, "I can't relate to that setting because all the characters are black.", how would you react to that person?

If this was something someone I didn't know had said, I'd be upset and possibly offended. If it was something someone I DO know had said, I'd immediately challenge that assertion and push to see why they had said it. See my comment above to Wyrmshadows. It's impossible to separate history from current culture.

Today, in 2008, we, in the western world, live in a multi-ethnic world. Our popular culture should reflect this. If it doesn't, then there's a problem.

I really don't care if the setting is pseudo-european or not. It's being written in 2008, and it should reflect our current value system. Filling the book entirely with white people is a bad idea for business.

Excellent.

I feel that the fantasy races of D&D worlds can serve as a stand in for whatever you want to say about race in our own.

This is true. But, the beauty of D&D is that any given group can take and eliminate elements at they see fit, to the point of even making stuff up from scratch. It doesn't HURT to include the black halflings, etc.

But if your players don't know the difference then what's the point? Save time and just throw them into the gameworld region your players understand as 'Ancient Asia' and get on with it. If your players have a better understanding of the difference between ancient European cultures (eg. Vikings, Celts, Angles, etc) then detail those instead.

<snip>

I'm a busy person. I don't want to spend all my time creating elements of the gameworld that I can just plagiarise from history.

Exactly. It seems that WotC has determined that most of its consumers are familiar with European history and tropes, so they're using them because it's easier than going into massive--and probably boring, to most people--detail about something else. Whether or not that assumption is correct, and whether or not WotC wants to expand beyond its current market, are separate questions.

But in any case, traditionally we have had different races of elves, dwarves, halflings etc - "High Elves" vs "Wood Elves" vs "Grey Elves", "Hill" vs "Mountain" vs ""Duergar" dwarves, "Stout" vs "Hairfoot" halflings.

But each of these get only a paragraph at most in the core books. Can you imagine the outcry if non-European human cultures were included but only as a paragraph? That's what splats are for . . . and to get back to the original post, I would think that diversity in the artwork would be used to entice readers to buy the splats--"Oh, that's cool, I wonder if there's some sort of detailed description of X, Y, and Z. Oh look, there is--let me buy it!"

This is interesting that you bring Midnight up, because it also has dark-skinned elves (that are not evil chaotics or loner rebels of good fighting against their races "natural" behavior).

Hm . . . Does anyone think that Drizzt is so popular because his skin is black? I'd think that were Drizzt from a light-skinned evil culture he'd still be just as popular . . . but maybe that's just me and my preferences in plot.

 

[mmadsen]

There's plenty of room to plausibly put people who have virtually any appearance anywhere without resorting to magic.

Sure, but they would have recently migrated there, settling a frontier where any previous population had disappeared for some reason, conquering the existing people, or being brought there as slaves.

They wouldn't just happen to be living side by side with another race, yet not mixing -- unless we're talking about a cosmopolitan Imperial capital or trading outpost on the frontier.

 

[Seonaid]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. I do not want my D&D full of liberal democracies populated by members of every race who share the same modern, progressive values.

I don't think that's what CountPopeula was saying, and it's certainly not what I was when I agreed with him.

I can't think of how to say this, so forgive me for being inarticulate, but just because the book reflects a progressive, liberal, what-have-you 2008 mentality does not mean that the elements of the book (the races, locations, characters, etc.) will be a mirror of my 2008 environment.

 

[Imaro]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. I do not want my D&D full of liberal democracies populated by members of every race who share the same modern, progressive values.

But D&D isn't medieval europe (Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun all have provisions within the gameworld that make it viable to play someone non-caucasian in appearance). Do you treat women in your campaigns the same way they would be treated during this time in europe? Or do you use more modern sensibilities? Also I'm starting to think you are confusing the issue of what your campaign world is based on instead of looking at the campaign worlds that have been released by TSR and WotC. I would further argue that there is no "caucasian by default" in any of these worlds. The funny thing I wonder is if their artwork has reinforced the opposite notion with you.

No one said they have to be liberal democracies, since even in 2008 this isn't the state of every nation in the world, but as a game (and one only loosely "based" on medieval europe if at all, since I see influences from numerous cultures in it's weapons, armor, classes, etc.) certain concessions are made in the spirit of what is fun for an audience that, while majority white males, isn't wholly composed of such.

 

[mmadsen]

I can't think of how to say this, so forgive me for being inarticulate, but just because the book reflects a progressive, liberal, what-have-you 2008 mentality does not mean that the elements of the book (the races, locations, characters, etc.) will be a mirror of my 2008 environment.

We were discussing diverse populations, and I would consider a diverse population, especially one where no sub-population is considered exotic and foreign, a very modern element of the book/game.