Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[GoLu]

A = [d^2 + d]/[2d-2]

This is how the average damage of an exploding weapon turns out:

1d4 = 10 damage
1d6 = 10.5
1d8 = 12
1d10 = 13.75
1d12 = 15.6

I can't find any fault in your average damage formula, but am curious how 1d4 averages 10 damage when (with d=4):
A = [4^2 + 4]/[2*4-2]
A = [16+4]/[8-2]
A = [20]/[6] = 20/6, which is a little over 3.33

Am I totally misunderstanding something here?

 

[DracoSuave]

I can't find any fault in your average damage formula, but am curious how 1d4 averages 10 damage when (with d=4):
A = [4^2 + 4]/[2*4-2]
A = [16+4]/[8-2]
A = [20]/[6] = 20/6, which is a little over 3.33

Am I totally misunderstanding something here?

Not at all. I failed at Excel Spreadsheet.

Corrected (again):

4: 3.33
6: 4.2
8: 5.14
10: 6.11
12: 7.09

So... 2d4 exploding's average damage comes out to 6.67, vs 1d10's 6.11, which is about right. d12 does clearly more damage with exploding dice than a 2d4.

And, Hypersmurf... when you're at a level where you're typically rolling fistfuls of dice for your damage, and where you get abilities that let you pick and chose and reroll dice after you've seen the entirety of damage.... that's a lot of time-suck that is completely unnecessary just because you fear the effects of a vorpal weapon that does... oh... just under 1 point of additional damage per die.

Drop in the bucket, compared to the four digit hp numbers you're up against.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And, Hypersmurf... when you're at a level where you're typically rolling fistfuls of dice for your damage, and where you get abilities that let you pick and chose and reroll dice after you've seen the entirety of damage.... that's a lot of time-suck that is completely unnecessary just because you fear the effects of a vorpal weapon that does... oh... just under 1 point of additional damage per die.

Drop in the bucket, compared to the four digit hp numbers you're up against.

I don't fear the effects of the vorpal weapon; I'm looking at the power that says it operates on a damage die, and the PHB saying that 2d4 is the damage die of the falchion.

I'm not making any argument about balance or usability or damage progressions. All I'm doing is pointing to the paragraph on p219 that says "a falchion (which has a damage die of 2d4)".

I don't care if the vorpal falchion deals more or less damage than the vorpal greataxe. I care that the PHB tells me that 2d4 is the damage die.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

Unfortunately, the description of how attack powers work for damage goes differently. And the very quote you mention uses that as an example of when multiple dice are listed as 'the damage die'. It even uses the phrase 'multiple dice.' You're taking it out of context and trying to say 'this is a rule' when, in fact, it's a summary of a rule that applies to that weapon characteristic that appears on a different page.

And you're doing it for no gain to either you, nor the game.

It's only making things needlessly complex in a game designed around making things needfully simpler.

Do you understand, then, how your interpretation runs completely counter to common sense, and only makes things harder for everyone concerned, and fails to add fun to the game?

 

[Hypersmurf]

And the very quote you mention uses that as an example of when multiple dice are listed as 'the damage die'. It even uses the phrase 'multiple dice.'

Right. Multiple dice can be expressed as "the damage die".

So when the Vorpal power refers to a damage die, any given damage die might in fact consist of multiple dice.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

You've taken my statement out of context, ironicly, being the rest of the statement is about taking things out of context, for no gain.

Rebut the -entire- statement, not just a single snippet, especially because the -entire- statement has the content and point, please.

I'll sum it up for you.

Your interpretation runs counter to common sense and immediate grokability of how dice and the english language work.
You've added in context to support your argument where it does not exist.
You are arguing a point that garners no benefit in fun, or playability, or game balance.
Your point involves in it a self-contradiction, a paradox where multiple dice can mean a singular die when NO RULE in the book says -explicitly- that it can.
You've interpreted this as the rule when there's NO example proving you right, simply because a little blurb on a weapons table uses a singular, when -every example- in the -actual- rule involving how [W] works does not.

There are multiple problems with your argument, that need to be addressed.

 

[jaelis]

Hyp, the PHB uses the word "die" in both senses. (See the sidebar on pg 8, for instance.) To me, the qualifier "any" in the vorpal description makes it sounds like the reference is to a single polyhedron, but maybe to someone else it doesn't. I think everyone should accept that the rules don't, in fact, resolve the question. So DMs should just play it as they think best.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your point involves in it a self-contradiction, a paradox where multiple dice can mean a singular die when NO RULE in the book says -explicitly- that it can.

If the term 'damage die' refers to a game concept rather than a literal English description of a piece of molded plastic, there's no paradox.

If we define the damage die of a longsword as 1d8, and the damage die of a falchion as 2d4, then we can have multiple pieces of molded plastic described by a singular game concept - multiple dice described as "damage die" - without a problem.

You've interpreted this as the rule when there's NO example proving you right, simply because a little blurb on a weapons table uses a singular, when -every example- in the -actual- rule involving how [W] works does not.

The line I'm quoting is an example. The clue is how it begins with "For example..."

"For example, a falchion (which has a damage die of 2d4) deals 8d4 damage when used with a power that deals 4[W] on a hit."

What is the damage die of a falchion? 2d4. Can the term "damage die" refer to multiple pieces of molded plastic? According to this example, it can.

So since we know that the term "damage die" can refer to the 2d4 making up the [W] of a falchion, and we know that the Vorpal power triggers when you roll the maximum on a damage die, what is the requirement to trigger the Vorpal power on the [W] of a falchion? To roll the maximum on the damage die... which is stated, in the example, to be 2d4.

-Hyp.

Hyp, the PHB uses the word "die" in both senses.

Sure. But in what sense does it use the word when it's describing the damage die of a falchion?

-Hyp.

 

[jaelis]

Sure. But in what sense does it use the word when it's describing the damage die of a falchion?

The [w] sense. But the topic at hand is how it is being used in the vorpal description.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The [w] sense. But the topic at hand is how it is being used in the vorpal description.

If I'm using a Vorpal Falchion, and I make a list of each damage die that makes up my damage roll, does the damage die of the falchion not appear on that list one or more times?

-Hyp.