A number of (mostly unconnected) rules questions

[hyphz]

I'm sorry if these have been dealt with before here, but I'd be really grateful for any answers to these:

1 - It seems that Rogues are incredibly powerful because of how easy it is to hide. This comes about for two reasons: first it seems very easy to obtain cover (it would appear from our understanding that the Rogue can just hide behind an ally, if necessary!). Secondly, in their turn the Rogue can take their Move action first, hide with a Stealth roll, then Sneak Attack, and the enemy is forced to use their Passive Perception against the Rogue's Stealth roll because using their active Perception would require an action and they have no time to take actions between the hiding and the attack.

Is this really how Rogues are intended to play - Sneak Attack almost every round?

2 - Are we correct in thinking that if a Wizard centres a burst on an empty square with cover, that all of the attack rolls made on creatures in the burst are made with the cover modifier applicable to targeting the empty square, even if the creature themselves - if targeted by the wizard - would not be in cover? We have found the Wizard in our party relatively weak because, since he can no longer use the trick of shooting behind an enemy to avoid backwash from an area effect, it's very difficult to place him so that he can use powers without hurting allies.

3 - Opening a door is a minor action, it seemed to us that this would mean that you cannot move 2 squares, open a door, then move the rest of your Speed - because when you opened the door, you started your Minor action, and so ended your Move action. Is this right? It seems a bit silly in this case.

4 - If a PC is directly North of a blocking obstacle and an enemy is directly West of the same blocking obstacle then by the rules, they have cover for Ranged attacks on each other (at least one corner is blocked) but not for melee. But in this case the PC does not want to attack the enemy, they only want not to be seen, so no attack will be made in either range or melee. How then is it established which cover rule is in force? Can the PC hide or not?

5 - Is a PC allowed to simply grab another PC and Pull or Push them? (Ie, can a PC push an immobilized ally out of danger?) Is it a Grab check and what's the modifier for the target being willing?

6 - A PC is "dying" at the end of a combat. No healing potions are available. The dying PC has healing surges available. Other characters can spend their own healing surges in the short rest but it appears (we might be wrong) the dying character can't do this since they can take no actions. The party Cleric has powers which could allow him to heal the dying PC by using one of the dying PC's healing surges on his behalf, but they are encounter powers and the Cleric used them all up in the actual battle. Does this mean that the PC must roll 5 minutes' (50 rounds?) worth of Death Saves to see if he survives long enough for the Cleric to get his powers back?

7 - The ability "potent challenge" gives a fighter a bonus to AOs granted by his Challenge ability. This seems bizarre as it would imply that if an enemy is marked by a Fighter with potent challenge, then the enemy shifts away from the fighter, they take an OA powered up by Potent Challenge; but, if the enemy simply moves away, they take a non-powered-up OA because that OA wasn't granted by the Challenge ability, it was just a regular OA that anyone would get. It always seemed a bit weird that Fighter's Challenge had the "AO on shift, so mise well move" effect and this seems to make it even more pronounced. Is this correct?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

7- Combat Challenge doesn't grant an OA, it grants a basic attack as an immediate interrupt against marked foes who shift or attack someone else.
Therefore if they take a move action, instead of shifting, they provoke an OA, which the fighter gets a bonus to equal to his wisdom modifier, and if he hits stops their movement.
Its safer to shift in other words.

6- See the heal skill. In addition to being able to stabilize the dying like in 3e it has several other useful features.


Edit- For 7 shifting will have the added effect of using up the fighters immediate action.

 

[hyphz]

6- See the heal skill. In addition to being able to stabilize the dying like in 3e it has several other useful features.

This is a good point that I missed, but as a technical question I'd still like to know - does the presence of a Dying and Unstable party member effectively prevent the game system from leaving tactical timing because Death Saves must be tracked?

 

[MarkB]

I'm sorry if these have been dealt with before here, but I'd be really grateful for any answers to these:

1 - It seems that Rogues are incredibly powerful because of how easy it is to hide. This comes about for two reasons: first it seems very easy to obtain cover (it would appear from our understanding that the Rogue can just hide behind an ally, if necessary!). Secondly, in their turn the Rogue can take their Move action first, hide with a Stealth roll, then Sneak Attack, and the enemy is forced to use their Passive Perception against the Rogue's Stealth roll because using their active Perception would require an action and they have no time to take actions between the hiding and the attack.

No, allies provide cover only against ranged attacks. A Perception check is not a ranged attack, so an ally does not provide cover against being spotted.

In any case, using an active perception check only has about a 50% chance of beating a passive check, so it's not necessarily any more advantageous.

Finally, arguments have raged on multiple forums as to exactly how and when a successful Stealth check is either possible or effective at granting a character Combat Advantage.

Is this really how Rogues are intended to play - Sneak Attack almost every round?

That will hopefully be clarified once the designers weigh in on some of those Stealth arguments. But bear in mind that Rogues don't get a great deal more damage from their special attack than Warlocks or Rangers do from theirs. It should not be too much more difficult for them to apply it.

2 - Are we correct in thinking that if a Wizard centres a burst on an empty square with cover, that all of the attack rolls made on creatures in the burst are made with the cover modifier applicable to targeting the empty square, even if the creature themselves - if targeted by the wizard - would not be in cover? We have found the Wizard in our party relatively weak because, since he can no longer use the trick of shooting behind an enemy to avoid backwash from an area effect, it's very difficult to place him so that he can use powers without hurting allies.

For Area and Close attacks, cover is determined relative to the originating square, not the caster's own space. Take that with a slight pinch of salt, since the point of origin for a Close blast or burst used by a Small or Medium creature is the caster's own space.

3 - Opening a door is a minor action, it seemed to us that this would mean that you cannot move 2 squares, open a door, then move the rest of your Speed - because when you opened the door, you started your Minor action, and so ended your Move action. Is this right? It seems a bit silly in this case.

That's how it was in the previous edition, except that the action cost of opening a door is now lower than it used to be. Basically, you cannot split one action to occur either side of another.

4 - If a PC is directly North of a blocking obstacle and an enemy is directly West of the same blocking obstacle then by the rules, they have cover for Ranged attacks on each other (at least one corner is blocked) but not for melee.

I can't find the rule that distinguishes between ranged and melee cover in this case. Can you provide a page reference?

5 - Is a PC allowed to simply grab another PC and Pull or Push them? (Ie, can a PC push an immobilized ally out of danger?) Is it a Grab check and what's the modifier for the target being willing?

As I see it, a character could allow an ally to automatically succeed at a Grab check - essentially the grabber would be taking hold of the equivalent of an inanimate object. You could then auto-succeed on a Strength attack to move that ally at half speed.

6 - A PC is "dying" at the end of a combat. No healing potions are available. The dying PC has healing surges available. Other characters can spend their own healing surges in the short rest but it appears (we might be wrong) the dying character can't do this since they can take no actions. The party Cleric has powers which could allow him to heal the dying PC by using one of the dying PC's healing surges on his behalf, but they are encounter powers and the Cleric used them all up in the actual battle. Does this mean that the PC must roll 5 minutes' (50 rounds?) worth of Death Saves to see if he survives long enough for the Cleric to get his powers back?

No. Allies can make Heal checks to stabilise the dying character, after which he makes no more saves.

7 - The ability "potent challenge" gives a fighter a bonus to AOs granted by his Challenge ability. This seems bizarre as it would imply that if an enemy is marked by a Fighter with potent challenge, then the enemy shifts away from the fighter, they take an OA powered up by Potent Challenge; but, if the enemy simply moves away, they take a non-powered-up OA because that OA wasn't granted by the Challenge ability, it was just a regular OA that anyone would get. It always seemed a bit weird that Fighter's Challenge had the "AO on shift, so mise well move" effect and this seems to make it even more pronounced. Is this correct?

No. You're conflating Basic Attacks with Opportunity Attacks.

If a creature marked by Combat Challenge shifts away from a fighter, he can make a Basic Attack (not an Opportunity Attack) against that creature, and if he has Potent Challenge, he gains a bonus to that attack. The bonus does not apply to any Opportunity Attack.

Bear in mind that a fighter who succeeds at an Opportunity Attack against a marked foe who attempts to move (not shift) away stops that foe dead in its tracks (unless it burns its Standard Action to move again) - so opponents have a choice. They can Shift and take a Basic Attack, but still end up one square away, or they can Move and take an Opportunity Attack, and risk not going anywhere.

 

[James McMurray]

1 - It seems that Rogues are incredibly powerful because of how easy it is to hide. This comes about for two reasons: first it seems very easy to obtain cover (it would appear from our understanding that the Rogue can just hide behind an ally, if necessary!). Secondly, in their turn the Rogue can take their Move action first, hide with a Stealth roll, then Sneak Attack, and the enemy is forced to use their Passive Perception against the Rogue's Stealth roll because using their active Perception would require an action and they have no time to take actions between the hiding and the attack.

Hiding behind allies is open to interpretation. Many (including me) say that you can't do it because allies only grant cover against ranged attacks.

Is this really how Rogues are intended to play - Sneak Attack almost every round?

Yes. It's what makes them strikers.

2 - Are we correct in thinking that if a Wizard centres a burst on an empty square with cover, that all of the attack rolls made on creatures in the burst are made with the cover modifier applicable to targeting the empty square, even if the creature themselves - if targeted by the wizard - would not be in cover? We have found the Wizard in our party relatively weak because, since he can no longer use the trick of shooting behind an enemy to avoid backwash from an area effect, it's very difficult to place him so that he can use powers without hurting allies.

For area effects you determine cover based on the origin. Also, area effects ignore cover from creatures, so those on the outskirts of a nuke aren't protected by those on the inner area.

3 - Opening a door is a minor action, it seemed to us that this would mean that you cannot move 2 squares, open a door, then move the rest of your Speed - because when you opened the door, you started your Minor action, and so ended your Move action. Is this right? It seems a bit silly in this case.

It's kinda silly, but that's how it works. You would have to convert your standard action to a move in order to keep going. If everyone at the table thinks its silly, house rule it away.

4 - If a PC is directly North of a blocking obstacle and an enemy is directly West of the same blocking obstacle then by the rules, they have cover for Ranged attacks on each other (at least one corner is blocked) but not for melee. But in this case the PC does not want to attack the enemy, they only want not to be seen, so no attack will be made in either range or melee. How then is it established which cover rule is in force? Can the PC hide or not?

I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Can you give some ascii art for it? The "code" tags will keep columns lined up.

5 - Is a PC allowed to simply grab another PC and Pull or Push them? (Ie, can a PC push an immobilized ally out of danger?) Is it a Grab check and what's the modifier for the target being willing?

They can grab you if they make a normal attack. I'd say it was against AC 5, since you're not trying to defend and that's what it would be if you had a 1 dex. To then pull you would be another standard action, strength vs. Fortitude (again 5 IMO).

If you're uncoscious or paralyzed, I'd say the grab is a minor action akin to readying an object, and then you worry more about encumbrance than forced movement.

6 - A PC is "dying" at the end of a combat. No healing potions are available. The dying PC has healing surges available. Other characters can spend their own healing surges in the short rest but it appears (we might be wrong) the dying character can't do this since they can take no actions. The party Cleric has powers which could allow him to heal the dying PC by using one of the dying PC's healing surges on his behalf, but they are encounter powers and the Cleric used them all up in the actual battle. Does this mean that the PC must roll 5 minutes' (50 rounds?) worth of Death Saves to see if he survives long enough for the Cleric to get his powers back?

If he hasn't used his Second Wind it's a DC 10 Heal check to let him do it. If he has used it, it's a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize him.

Also, you spend the healing surges after the rest, not inside it. This prevents a situation where you rest for 20 seconds and spend surges, but then someone attacks and you violate the short rest.

 

[James McMurray]

This is a good point that I missed, but as a technical question I'd still like to know - does the presence of a Dying and Unstable party member effectively prevent the game system from leaving tactical timing because Death Saves must be tracked?

You can't leave tactical timing, but you're still resting for the 6 - 18 seconds it takes to stabilize the dying guy. I don't know if it would ever matter that it's being tracked that closely. You should be fine just making the needed saves and heal checks, then saying "we short rest."

 

[Hypersmurf]

4 - If a PC is directly North of a blocking obstacle and an enemy is directly West of the same blocking obstacle then by the rules, they have cover for Ranged attacks on each other (at least one corner is blocked) but not for melee.

So you're set up with the PC's square and the enemy's square touching at one corner, with the obstacle adjacent to both and touching the same corner?

There's no cover for melee or ranged in this case. The PC selects that corner to draw his lines from; he can draw an unobstructed line to all four corners of the enemy's square.

Remember, "(A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.)"

-Hyp.

 

[Chen_93]

1 - It seems that Rogues are incredibly powerful because of how easy it is to hide. This comes about for two reasons: first it seems very easy to obtain cover (it would appear from our understanding that the Rogue can just hide behind an ally, if necessary!). Secondly, in their turn the Rogue can take their Move action first, hide with a Stealth roll, then Sneak Attack, and the enemy is forced to use their Passive Perception against the Rogue's Stealth roll because using their active Perception would require an action and they have no time to take actions between the hiding and the attack.

Is this really how Rogues are intended to play - Sneak Attack almost every round?

The cover allies provide is only for ranged attacks, not for stealthing.

2 - Are we correct in thinking that if a Wizard centres a burst on an empty square with cover, that all of the attack rolls made on creatures in the burst are made with the cover modifier applicable to targeting the empty square, even if the creature themselves - if targeted by the wizard - would not be in cover? We have found the Wizard in our party relatively weak because, since he can no longer use the trick of shooting behind an enemy to avoid backwash from an area effect, it's very difficult to place him so that he can use powers without hurting allies.

The creature gets cover bonuses if there is cover between the origin of the attack and the creature. Instead of looking from yourself to the creature to determine cover, you use the origin of the attack.

3 - Opening a door is a minor action, it seemed to us that this would mean that you cannot move 2 squares, open a door, then move the rest of your Speed - because when you opened the door, you started your Minor action, and so ended your Move action. Is this right? It seems a bit silly in this case.

This does seem to be correct by RAW. Not sure how I'd rule this myself, but letting someone open a door while moving through doesn't seem too imbalancing.

4 - If a PC is directly North of a blocking obstacle and an enemy is directly West of the same blocking obstacle then by the rules, they have cover for Ranged attacks on each other (at least one corner is blocked) but not for melee. But in this case the PC does not want to attack the enemy, they only want not to be seen, so no attack will be made in either range or melee. How then is it established which cover rule is in force? Can the PC hide or not?

Where does this cover rule come from? It seems to me he should have cover from melee attacks as well.

5 - Is a PC allowed to simply grab another PC and Pull or Push them? (Ie, can a PC push an immobilized ally out of danger?) Is it a Grab check and what's the modifier for the target being willing?

If the Ally isn't helpless you need to go through the whole Grab/Move-Grabbed person thing. If the ally is helpless treat it as an object and you just move it. I don't like the grabbing and moving allies thing since there are powers that generally do this, so why allow everyone to do it? Maybe add a slight bonus to the initial grab roll, but the strength check to actually move the person should remain the same.

6 - A PC is "dying" at the end of a combat. No healing potions are available. The dying PC has healing surges available. Other characters can spend their own healing surges in the short rest but it appears (we might be wrong) the dying character can't do this since they can take no actions. The party Cleric has powers which could allow him to heal the dying PC by using one of the dying PC's healing surges on his behalf, but they are encounter powers and the Cleric used them all up in the actual battle. Does this mean that the PC must roll 5 minutes' (50 rounds?) worth of Death Saves to see if he survives long enough for the Cleric to get his powers back?

You would likely use the heal skill to allow them to use their second wind or stabilize them. But you'd need to keep making heal checks until they succeeded, died or the 5 minutes elapses and someone could use healing word or some other power on them.

7 - The ability "potent challenge" gives a fighter a bonus to AOs granted by his Challenge ability. This seems bizarre as it would imply that if an enemy is marked by a Fighter with potent challenge, then the enemy shifts away from the fighter, they take an OA powered up by Potent Challenge; but, if the enemy simply moves away, they take a non-powered-up OA because that OA wasn't granted by the Challenge ability, it was just a regular OA that anyone would get. It always seemed a bit weird that Fighter's Challenge had the "AO on shift, so mise well move" effect and this seems to make it even more pronounced. Is this correct?

The feat table still refers to these combat challenge attacks as OAs when they are not. Probably an error after playtesting and them realizing if the combat challenge attack was an OA fighters would be a bit too strong at keeping things near them.

 

[hyphz]

Thank you very much for all your replies!

1 - Is there somewhere a clear statement of the rules for what provides cover for stealthing? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the "corner counting" rules for attack cover in the DMG, which is what we had been using so far (which might be why we were having a problem)

2 - That cover is calculated from the origin point of the attack. Am I correct then that the Wizard can choose any origin point for the attack that he can see (no matter how awkwardly he can see it, ie even one in Superior Cover)?

3 - Ok, thanks.

4 - The cover rules I'm talking about are in the DMG on page 43. According to those, melee cover exists if ANY line between any two corners is blocked; ranged cover exists if any line from the attacker's choice of corner to any defender's corner is blocked. So if this is true then in this case: (# is a blocking obstacle)

 a
b#

a and b mutually have melee cover (a blocked line exists - the line from b's southeast corner to a's southeast corner is blocked) but not ranged cover (either can move to their northwest corner and see all four of the other's corners). (I actually had it the wrong way around before - sorry.) Which causes confusion over the fundamental question "can b see a"?

On 5, 6, 7, I'm clear now- thanks very much for your help.

 

[Hypersmurf]

4 - The cover rules I'm talking about are in the DMG on page 43.

Ah, okay. Those are for the DM if he decides he needs more precise rules for Cover than those in the PHB.

Under the PHB rules, neither the melee nor ranged attacker suffers from cover in your described scenario.

Under the DMG 'more precise' rules, the melee attacker suffers from cover (since there are corners of his square with blocked lines to the opponent), but the ranged attacker does not (since he can choose one of his corners which has no blocked lines to the opponent). (I think this is the opposite of what you said in your first post... ah, you noticed that too.)

However, since the DMG 'more precise' rules only redefine the rules for cover for melee, ranged, close, and area attacks, you'd still use the PHB rules for any other cover determination... like whether you can use stealth.

-Hyp.