Clark Peterson on 4E

[Dark Mistress]

Yeah, well I have played "burglar and lonely housewife" with the missus as well, and it was fun. Still, that doesn't make sex a roleplaying game.

Cheers

Didn't say it was, you was implying people couldn't RP with it. i was only saying you could. You can RP just about anything if you want to.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I think I agree with you too. I wasnt saying that 4E is no longer an RPG. I mean, that would be crazy. Of course its an RPG. My concern is that it has too much reliance on the grid and that stifles options, in my opinion. It feels too much like a mini game, or maybe I should say it has too many mini game concepts hardwired into it for my tastes. I cant fault Wizards for that, their minis sell better than their other stuff and so incorporating that into their core RPG makes business sense. I dont like it so much though I want to go back to feet and to more freeform movement. I absolutely detest hopping around a grid.

And as for "anime crap" well I am a big boy and I can take the shots for that. Those were my words. I wont take them back. I'm not trying to offend people, but I can see why that would. I just happen to think that 4E is overpowered and even at real low levels. And that just doesnt fit with how I want my D&D to be. I dont want rangers shooting two arrows out of their bow with one shot at first level. Thats what I was referring to. It was probably wrong of me to call that "anime crap" and to link overpowered stuff to anime. I hope you guys see what I mean by sayinig that, as indelicately as I did It wasnt fair or accurate of me to link that to anime and I am certainly not dissing that genre at all. But, as they say, you cant unring the bell.

No one's going to take the Rapid Shot feat? Dang it!

No option to use one dagger in each hand and then the rapid shot?

Blast!

 

[Imp]

No one's going to take the Rapid Shot feat? Dang it!

Your magic missiles strike the gazebo.

 

[Allister]

Don't worry - the guy who made "Grave of the Fireflies" probably knew you weren't talking about him.

*Chuckle*

Yeah, couldnt be the Wings of Honneaise guy either...

Honestly, I really respect you Clark and I really like some of your products but can I give you a word of advice?

To the 21 and under crowd, you come off as totally ignorant about anime. These days, most anime fans EASILY have access to things like GotF et al and it makes you come off as a totally "old" cranky guy Jack Thompson, he of the videogame crowd

Anime is such a huge part of the 21 and under crowd that simply lumping it in as just "naruto/bleach" makes you come across as old dude whose no longer connected to what your target market actually likes.

When D&D was huge in the 80s, it was "the anime" (hell, even here I disagree with myself since anime has had much larger penetration).

 

[Halivar]

After reading Clark's response, I retract my whole "lack of passion" comment (yeah, that was me [sorry!]). I think, in retrospect, that Clark has been taken out of context.

I'm not certain that there is much to discuss. Clark dislikes D&D 4e due to how it handles certain things.

Sounds more like (again, in retrospect and after hearing from Clark himself) that he likes 4e despite how it handles certain things. The same could be said of any player and any system (even their favorite).

All in all, it is much to do over nothing. The fanboi's haven't lost a favorite publisher, and teh haters haven't gained a convert. Also, expect some alternative houserules from Necro.

 

[BryonD]

Its sort of funny because the people over on the Necro boards are shaking their heads wondering how on ENWorld my comments are being construed as me being anti-4E. Funny how its all about perspective...

Clark

Well, I think the perspective here is that you said almost word for word several things that have been decried as "hater" talk on these boards. Seriously, amongst certain groups, the comparisons you made are total heresy. Or at least they were until some magic happened today.... And I fully expect they will be again next time anyone *else* dares suggest them.

Now I agree that saying those things doesn't make you an actual hater any more than it makes me an actual hater. But I have a hard time seeing how it is suddenly ok to say that 4E is to much mini game and not enough roleplaying game when it has been an instant sentence to the "hater" cells before today.
And I very much understand the difference between stating a personal opinion and proclaiming a "truth". But again, no such allowance has been provided to anyone else up to this day.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I think that trying to recapture a '1E feel' is the wrong way to go, though.

I agree, although for very different reasons. I think the best way to capture 1E feel is to play first edition. I tried doing 1E feel with 3E for a long time, but it didn't work out, for me.

...[players] had been actively driven away by 1E/2E's various little stupidities that don't fare well at all once you've been exposed to other systems.

I think it's a lot more complicated than that (although certainly 2E drove me away -- I abandoned it). And I definitely don't think that the TSR editions' qualities are necessarily "stupidities," although I can see how someone approaching the game with a different set of assumptions and expectations would dislike them. I've been exposed to lots of other systems, but I much prefer OD&D or AD&D over the newer variants.

 

[Jack99]

Didn't say it was, you was implying people couldn't RP with it. i was only saying you could. You can RP just about anything if you want to.

Actually, that was precisely my point. You can RP with just about anything (sex monopoly), but that doesn't make it a roleplaying game. On the other hand, games like D&D, which more or less require it, are by definition roleplaying games.

 

[Jack99]

Well, I think the perspective here is that you said almost word for word several things that have been decried as "hater" talk on these boards. Seriously, amongst certain groups, the comparisons you made are total heresy. Or at least they were until some magic happened today.... And I fully expect they will be again next time anyone *else* dares suggest them.

Maybe he was cut some slack 'cause it was suspected what he really meant? If you had posted the same, we also would have known what you meant, so the reaction might have been different?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

This. There are certain elements of 4E that aren't clear until you actually play the game. Classes are NOT interchangeable --- anyone who has played in a lopsided party and a balanced party can tell you this.

It's just like AD&D --- if you don't bring a fighter, a thief, m-u and cleric ... you're screwed. This is true of any (and every) Gygaxian dungeon. Sure, once you have the major food groups, feel free to add on the thief-acrobats and cavaliers, but if you take them and exclude the core classes, you are toast.

True in AD&D. True in 4E.

Bull. We've ran all thief campaigns, all mage, and no cleric games on a regular basis. In AD&D it worked just fine. And with dms who let the dice fall as they may. Of course back then we weren't tenderfoots - tenderfeet?