Clark Peterson on 4E

[Kishin]

Anime is such a huge part of the 21 and under crowd that simply lumping it in as just "naruto/bleach" makes you come across as old dude whose no longer connected to what your target market actually likes.

I'd say its wider than just the 21 and under crowd. There's a significant portion of mid twenties anime fans and even early 30s, as the genesis of its popularity really started in the mid 90s.

When D&D was huge in the 80s, it was "the anime" (hell, even here I disagree with myself since anime has had much larger penetration).

D&D has had significant influence on anime, ironically. Record of Lodoss War was based off an actual D&D campaign, and one doesn't need to look very hard at series like Berserk to see where it continued.

I guess what goes around comes around? *duck*

All in all, it is much to do over nothing. The fanboi's haven't lost a favorite publisher, and teh haters haven't gained a convert. Also, expect some alternative houserules from Necro.

Good sir, this is the internet and we have a reputation to maintain. We simply must fight about this for another five or six pages, minimum.

In all seriousness, Clark's gone and made himself pretty abundantly clear here, and everyone who was surprised by the turn of events already explained their reasoning why.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Actually, that was precisely my point. You can RP with just about anything (sex monopoly), but that doesn't make it a roleplaying game. On the other hand, games like D&D, which more or less require it, are by definition roleplaying games.

Which I wasn't disagree with, I only said something cause you basicaly asked if anyone had done that with monopoly and well I have. So just thought I would point out that while I imagine it is rare it happens is all.

What is or is not a RP game is subjective. I don't consider MMO's to be one but it is part of their name and many people RP in them, even if they are a minority.

This is not directed at you Jack, I just think trying to define what is or is not a RPG is kinda silly. Since almost anything you can RP with, so then what makes a RPG? Me personally i think it is the people playing it. But what each of us considers a true RPG is going to be different.

 

[Jack99]

This is not directed at you Jack, I just think trying to define what is or is not a RPG is kinda silly. Since almost anything you can RP with, so then what makes a RPG? Me personally i think it is the people playing it. But what each of us considers a true RPG is going to be different.

I agree. It's kinda a silly discussion. But so was the idea that sparked the debate, that 4e isn't a RPG.

 

[JeffB]

Anime is such a huge part of the 21 and under crowd that simply lumping it in as just "naruto/bleach" makes you come across as old dude whose no longer connected to what your target market actually likes.

Why do you feel that is Clark's audience? I certainly don't feel it is- and I suspect Clark would agree. His target audience are people who grew up playing 1E in D&D's heyday- not the under 21 anime crowd.

 

[JVisgaitis]

This rant brought to you by misinterpretation and not reading any further in the thread.

I didn't read further until this morning. My apologies. That was totally uncalled for. I shouldn't respond late at night when I'm half asleep.

 

[BryonD]

Maybe he was cut some slack 'cause it was suspected what he really meant? If you had posted the same, we also would have known what you meant, so the reaction might have been different?

Huh? I have posted very much the same.
And it seems very clear to me that "what he really meant" and what I "really meant" were pretty much the same thing.

The only difference I see in your post is an implication of a double standard in that other people elected to "suspect" the words of Clark differently than mine.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

Why do you feel that is Clark's audience? I certainly don't feel it is- and I suspect Clark would agree. His target audience are people who grew up playing 1E in D&D's heyday- not the under 21 anime crowd.

I guess I'm part of the under 21 anime crowd. Oh wait, I'm 31 years old.

If you get to say that Naruto is fully representative of fantasy anime, then I get to say that the Sword of Truth series is fully representative of Western fantasy. Seriously, people, "anime" does not mean "any full-color fantasy illustration not done by Larry Elmore." And it certainly doesn't mean "any fantasy trope that I don't like."

Allister is right. Anybody who is only marketing to the people who grew up playing 1E back in 1980-84 and who still want to game in that style today is following a losing strategy, because the vast majority of those people don't have the time or the interest to play D&D anymore. There are some, granted, but I don't really think that comprises a large enough percentage of modern gaming 26 years later (taking an averaging of that time period) to be worth chasing to the exclusion of all others.

Hell, dude. I grew up playing a hybridized mixture of 1E/2E in the 90s, and I wouldn't go back to that if you paid me.

 

[BryonD]

I agree. It's kinda a silly discussion. But so was the idea that sparked the debate, that 4e isn't a RPG.

But there is a bait and switch that has been going on for months now.

I agree 100% that 4E is an RPG.
However, there has been post after post that simply proclaims that because you can roleplay to one RPG the same way you roleplay to other RPGs, that the first one does the job just as well. And the only way that can be true is if the person saying it doesn't really use *ANY* RPG well.

Of course monopoly is not an RPG. But the fact that you can roleplay it demonstrates that simply being able to roleplay on top of the game mechanics is not an adequate definition of a GOOD RPG. Players have demands and expectations of what the mechanics will add to the roleplaying experience. If the mechanics of a system don't meet that demand, then it isn't adequate. It is entirely reasonable for individuals to find 4E to not be up to their standards. Rather than accepting this and moving on the conversation typically degrades into one or both of the follow aburdities:
"So you aren't good enough to RP this game, eh?" (which is usually the opposite of the real issue) or
"So it isn't an RPG, eh?"

Forcing a question that is both subjective and highly relative to be placed in an absolute "yes / no" is a bad way to communicate.

 

[JeffB]

I guess I'm part of the under 21 anime crowd. Oh wait, I'm 31 years old.

If you get to say that Naruto is fully representative of fantasy anime, then I get to say that the Sword of Truth series is fully representative of Western fantasy. Seriously, people, "anime" does not mean "any full-color fantasy illustration not done by Larry Elmore." And it certainly doesn't mean "any fantasy trope that I don't like."

Allister is right. Anybody who is only marketing to the people who grew up playing 1E back in 1980-84 and who still want to game in that style today is following a losing strategy, because the vast majority of those people don't have the time or the interest to play D&D anymore. There are some, granted, but I don't really think that comprises a large enough percentage of modern gaming 26 years later (taking an averaging of that time period) to be worth chasing to the exclusion of all others.

Hell, dude. I grew up playing a hybridized mixture of 1E/2E in the 90s, and I wouldn't go back to that if you paid me.

I didn't bring it up- someone stated Clark was going to seem out of touch to the under 21 anime crowd- and making reference to that being his audience.

I don't care if you are 31 and like anime- I don't care if you feel the fundamentals of Necromancer games' mission statement is a losing strategy. It is what it is- And I don't think Clark is going to change Necro's mission statement to cater to a segment of gamers he's not really concerned with. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.


Necormancer's success as 3PP company I think proves that the "1E feel" market segment is bigger than you'd like to think.

PS I don't think you are the target audience at all- When you were not even born/just being born I and many similar Necro customers were already playing D&D- AFAIC you entirely a differernt Generation of D&D fan.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

I didn't bring it up- someone stated Clark was going to seem out of touch to the under 21 anime crowd- and making reference to that being his audience.

I don't care if you are 31 and like anime- I don't care if you feel the fundamentals of Necromancer games' mission statement is a losing strategy. It is what it is- And I don't think Clark is going to change Necro's mission statement to cater to a segment of gamers he's not really concerned with. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.


Necormancer's success as 3PP company I think proves that the "1E feel" market segment is bigger than you'd like to think.

PS I don't think you are the target audience at all- When you were not even born/just being born I and many similar Necro customers were already playing D&D- AFAIC you entirely a differernt Generation of D&D fan.

In a few hours I'm going to be downloading Mega Man 9 on my Wii, which is about as retro a modern video game as you can GET. Mega Man 9 is done in the playstyle of Mega Man 2, complete, old-school, Nintendo-Hard retro platform shooter. But at the same time there are gamers who will swear on a stack of bibles that modern video games are nothing but full 3D out the arse looks-good-plays-bad, conveniently ignoring that for every Mega Man there were a dozen Master Chu and the Drunkard Hus. I look at those retro gamers with the same jaundiced eye that I look at retro RP gamers who say that their favorite version of D&D is the One True Game, and anything else is desecrating their rose-tinted memories and Gary's corpse.

In other words, "You remember mostly the good stuff, get over yourself." If you don't come after me trying to convince me that my playstyle sucks, I don't give a rat's ass what you're doing in your basement.