Got the D&D 4e Starter Set...So whatcha wanna know?

[howandwhy99]

Ignoring any kind of design arguments, I think aiming D&D at 10-12 year olds is absolutely the best strategy for the hobby as a whole. I would endorse this goal to any company. No matter what form such an effort requires to be successful, I'm glad Wizards is marketing the game towards kids. I'm all for "anything that sticks" in that department.

 

[Imaro]

BTW I am not necessarily trying to argue one opinion is more valid than another (e.g. char gen vs no char gen). I am just trying to provide some insight into why we made the product the way we did.

At the end of the day the product is out there and the market will ultimately determine it's success or failure. In my opinion it is a good product for new players because it teaches the basics, offering good value in both play and quality.

See and the bolded is what worries me about Wotc and this basic set period. The measure of it's success is based on it's sales not how many new players it will introduce.

As far as it's value, I would say it doesn't offer good value from the player (not DM0 perspective) but like you said, it's a difference of opinion.

I think most of us are just disappointed that this set is not very useful for us existing players.

For completely new players the approach that they have done seems quite good to me and if the Character Generator is online (and simple enough) then the missing Creation-Chapter is not such a big problem.

But I have to admit that I would love a Basic Set that fills the void between that starter set and the full PHB/MM/DMG set, with more options then the starter and the full Heroic Tier, but still easier, quicker and cheaper than the full set. That would be awesome for One-Shots and for existing Roleplayers that want to try the new D&D Edition. Since less options doesn't mean that it has to be incompatible, they could still buy Adventures, Adventurers Vaults, etc even if they don't have the full set now. I think that would bring quite a few new players to D&D that stumble with the full set-price (and pagecount) but who needs more meat than the simple starter set.

See I think you've got it backwards. The set is probably more value for a current player than a new person getting in the game. Like I said above alot of people are going to buy it just to get the tokens, tiles, and dice. I mean Scott came on these very boards and hyped it to people who already play D&D. That's why it concerns me that his yardstick for success is just how profitable it is.

Again, the online generator is not an answer...especially since it is not specifically mentioned in the starter set as a place to expand character options. Most new players are not going to know to instinctively go to the character generator... In the end I again feel like stuff is left out purposefully to draw one towards the online components, and IMO this trend just isn't cool. YMMV of course.

 

[GQuail]

I strongly disagree. I understand WotC wants to sell its online package of stuff, but it should not be required from a physical product. Everything you need should be in the box labeled "Starter set".

Also not thinking if those kids that can afford the starter set can even use the character builder due to the high-end requirements of the complete package it is built around.

The PHB does not require online services, nor should the starter box.

An advertisement for DDI is one thing, but trying to force a sale due to neglected information or require an additional purchase is just downright offensive to me.

DDI and the physical products should not be tied so closely together no matter how much they are both wanted to be sold. You don't need DDI to play D&D, and many cannot use it due to system requirements not including OS.

I cannot get behind thinking the DDI tool is OK to satisfy the lack of presence of character generation in the starter. It seems like saying you had to buy E-tools, or Master Tools, or whatever for 3rd, or AD&D core rules for 2nd edition because the starter left them out. It just really dismays me to think that is the case.

The Rouse has been saying, however, that the Character Generator will be free for levels 1-3: so it's not exactly a money grab. If beginners want to dabble in character generation then there's a free option for them before they get their hands on a PHB: however, it's debatable how they'd know to do such a thing without the starter set telling them to. (And that's ignoring your comments about system requirements, which are a more DDI specific complaint that I'll leave for anotehr thread)

Back to the more core topic at hand: Everyone hoping for a product exactly like the old Red Box is perhaps forgetting that the whole reason they dropped the BD&D line was the market fragmentation that occured from having it and AD&D alongside each other - in a similar vein, notice that Wizards also no longer make a dedicated beginner Magic set in Portal, instead packaging up their "real" product in a beginner friendly package.

Furthermore, to the people asking for an "all-heroic tier" product.... well, as someone else said, that's a huge amount of words, since heroic-tier is the one with the most material on it. The scale people are asking for, especially at a beginner-friendly price point, is just unfeasable.

Now, I do agree that some sort of character generation is a pretty key RPG trick, and think the 3.5 black dragon box set is all the better for having it in a limited form. Then again, I bought a copy of that box for a little cousin for his, um, 14th birthday, and it was a hit with him and his little siblings, and they were keen to play again and happy when I bought him a PHB proper for Christmas, they never made their own characters with the boxed set.

A starter set for D&D should certainly have pre-generated characters and possibly a link to a website where there could be more pre-generated characters available to give it a quicker start-up time. Having some sort of optional rule for character creation in the back would seem a good idea to me, so there's a middle ground between "newbie playing game for first time" and "time to buy my PHB", but I dunno how much of that would really be appreciated by the target 10 to 12 market.

At the risk of invoking e-tools, what if the game also came with a CD that contained PDFs to print of all the character sheets, monster stats etc, and a little tool to design your own 1st level characters from a limited palette? There's still a cost issue in designing that, but if you already have a DDI tool on the way, it's a pretty trivial addition - and even without a character generator, being able to print out rather than have to tear or photocopy the sheets seems a pretty key thing that a modern gamer would expect.

 

[GQuail]

the online generator is not an answer...especially since it is not specifically mentioned in the starter set as a place to expand character options. Most new players are not going to know to instinctively go to the character generator...

Considering that plenty of "real" D&D players don't frequent the D&D end of the internet, this seems a valid complaint, especially for the kids we're supposed to be targetting - why will they assume there's anything more without prompting? Wouldn't the people who do know be the kind of peopel who would be teaching the game themselves rather than buying a starter set on impulse?

 

[Saben]

I'm a new DM. I'm 23 and my players are all 17. We're all brand new to D&D, having decided to start with the release of 4e. Some of us have played DDO, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights and other such games before- so we understand character generation- but we're newer to actually playing a game. We have experience tabletop games like Warhammer, however.

KotS was disappointing for my players because of premades and this starter set seems similarly disappointing.

My players don't need a lot of choice- they don't know as much about the game as I do as often rely on my judgement for feats, skills and specific stat arrays. But my Dragonborn Fighter flatout would HATE playing a Dwarf. My Human Wizard likes Wizards but only plays elven and humanoid races. My Warlord likes Tactical but not Inspiring, he likes having a high int.

I think a starter set should allow stats to be changed (Standard Array is fine), class and race to be selected independently and a choice of weapons with maybe SOME limited power choice. Skills and Feats are less of a big deal. But being able to make a character that fits a vision in one's head is very important. It's what an RPG means to a lot of people.

Of course, for my players I guess the PHB sates their creation desires and indeed we moved onto the PHB as soon as it was released, rather than waiting for the starter set. But the PHB, DMG and MM have been a bit daunting. As DM in particular I have felt overwhelmed even playing Fallcrest and KotS with DMG in-hand.

A new game is always hard to play, Warhammer was challenging when we first started. But I have felt the storytelling aspect in particular is challenging, especially when my characters want to have free reign and I struggle to improvise... I think starter DM rules should be as linear as possible to make a new DM's job easy. But starter player rules should at least allow players to make the characters that exist in their heads. Or at the very least standard fantasy archetypes.

 

[erf_beto]

Hey Scott, thanks for dropping by.

I understand the reasons for no chargen, and I agree with them: I was the one kid reading the books cover to cover and trying to get other kids to play. It's been that way forever, even with other games, not just dnd. The DM must be able to hold his group together, and any help he can get is welcome, specially at the early stages.

Still, there's a sour taste in our mouths.

Now, if both the Compendium and Character Builder will grant free access to levels 1-3, could WotC take those rules and realease a free pdf appendix-like suplement with basic char gen for download? Or, could we, the community, make one without any law infringement? (We probably have to wait for the GSL, I suck at this law stuff). Maybe with just a couple of options (i.e. 4 basic classes), to showcase the greatness of character creation and to direct the more interested kids to the books and full online content.

One more thing: this is actually a pet-project of mine, but could we see more pre-gens for download? One for each build, why not? That's 16 characters! Make them stereotypical, I don't care, they are pregens! Besides, newbies will probably come to the game with movies and games in mind, so you're bound to hear "I wanna be Legolas". With that many choices, any new player is bound to find something he wants to play, right?

 

[mmadsen]

I think most of us are just disappointed that this set is not very useful for us existing players.

I don't think that's an accurate summary at all. I think most people here are disappointed that this set is not very useful to new players, the way the old basic sets were.

I think it makes perfect sense to provide pre-generated characters -- both to get started quickly and to demonstrate correct character creation -- but one of the defining elements of D&D is that it's creative.

 

[Grimstaff]

BTW I am not necessarily trying to argue one opinion is more valid than another (e.g. char gen vs no char gen). I am just trying to provide some insight into why we made the product the way we did.

At the end of the day the product is out there and the market will ultimately determine it's success or failure. In my opinion it is a good product for new players because it teaches the basics, offering good value in both play and quality.

I hope it does well, bringing new folks to the hobby is a good thing!

Free good idea: how about including a $5 or $10-off coupon for a PHB in these boxes to get the ball rolling for new players?

And a question: Any future possibility of packs of Monster Tokens being sold with or alongside the dungeon tiles?

 

[Delta]

Back to the more core topic at hand: Everyone hoping for a product exactly like the old Red Box is perhaps forgetting that the whole reason they dropped the BD&D line was the market fragmentation that occured from having it and AD&D alongside each other...

Sure. But I'm not hoping for Red Box -- it seems like Blue Box (Holmes) is the no-brainer. Levels 1-3 with a limited set of race/class selections. Hints dropped all over about the cool additions available in AD&D. A few lines about higher-level spells unavailable in this set, but available in AD&D. That's addictive.

 

[GQuail]

Sure. But I'm not hoping for Red Box -- it seems like Blue Box (Holmes) is the no-brainer. Levels 1-3 with a limited set of race/class selections. Hints dropped all over about the cool additions available in AD&D. A few lines about higher-level spells unavailable in this set, but available in AD&D. That's addictive.

Something like this was present in the Black Dragon 3.5 Basic Set and, as I said further down in my own post, this is something I think was cool (even if unused in my own limited experience introducing a beginner with those rules.)

However, bear in mind how little "moving parts" there are to a character in the Blue Book, and how many 4E has. With the addition of more regular feats and at-will/encounter/daily powers for every class, a 4E basic set would need a lot more material to provide the character generation rules while still being compatible with the full rules. (And if it's not compatible with the full rules then we get back into Basic/Advanced D&D territory.)

I would have to confess, though, that a basic set with such a pared down 4E character generation would interest me, and would almost certainly go as a present to a younger relative or two of mine. ;-) As others have said, character generation in an RPG is such a key concept that not having it in some form seems odd.