Intelligent Blademaster with Javelin?

[Doctor Proctor]

Actually, technically, weapons don't 'normally do' anything.

By normally, I meant in the case of a basic melee or ranged attack. They use Strength for melee, Dexterity for ranged, and then either Str or Dex for thrown depending on it's type. Using powers then modifies this.

 

[Drudenfusz]

I don't think ranged combat is a big part of the Defender role - and, is the swordmage really lacking in ranged powers? I seem to remember not just ranged, but /Area/ powers in the swordmage list. Besides, isn't Intelligent Blademaster for use with, well, blades? The only throwable blade is the dagger, and it's light thrown.

It's not about the role of the defender, my question is about the game philosophy of 4th Edition. And the Swordmage as two dailiey with ranged attack and one Encounter Power with an area, that's not much...

You left out a sentence earlier, though.
"You can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword."

But the Javelin is not a ranged weapon, it only counts as one while thrown. I think that the wording of the Intelligent Blademaster is intended to use it this way. And even if not, what is so bad about it, if players can use it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the Javelin is not a ranged weapon, it only counts as one while thrown.

Exactly. So while thrown, it follows the rules for ranged weapons... which means you can't use it as a melee weapon when you throw it.

-Hyp.

 

[Ibixat]

Ranged basic attack is a "basic attack" type. If your weapon indicates that you use streangth instead of dexterity when using it for a ranged basic attack and your feat says you use intelligence instead of strength when making a basic attack, then yes, the intelligent blademaster allows the use of intelligence on a heavy thrown weapon under the ranged basic attack rule. At first I was going to disagree then I looked up basic attack on PHB Pg. 287

"Special: Weapons with the heavy thrown property (see page 216) use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls."

Which then allows the substitution of intelligence for Strength, I wouldn't have ever caught that had it not been brought up here though, thanks!

 

[Drudenfusz]

Exactly. So while thrown, it follows the rules for ranged weapons... which means you can't use it as a melee weapon when you throw it.

Yes I don't use it as a melee weapon, but nevertheless it is still a melee weapon! And the Feat allows me to use it that way. What harm comes in not forbidding it? none. What happens if you allow it? Happy players, with one more option for their character.

Remember, 4th Edition is about fun!

 

[DracoSuave]

Exactly. So while thrown, it follows the rules for ranged weapons... which means you can't use it as a melee weapon when you throw it.

-Hyp.

A one-handed weapon, by your -own- interpretation is a one-handed weapon regardless if it is versatile and is used as a two-handed weapon.

Why is this? Because it is under an entry as a one-handed weapon, regardless of whether you use it in two hands. This is the logic that applies.

The -exact- same logic applies when throwing a melee weapon with the 'heavy thrown' trait. At no point does it -stop- being a melee one-handed or melee two-handed weapon. The thrown ability means you use it as an -exception- to the rule. It does not change the weapon's properties one bit.

If a versatile weapon stays a one-handed weapon when you use it two-handed, a melee weapon stays a melee weapon when you use it in a ranged attack.

If the power were only limited to melee basic attack, it would say 'melee basic attack.' It does not. It says 'basic attack with a melee weapon' which is a different thing. Nothing you can do with a javelin changes the fact that is, for all intents and purposes, a one-handed melee weapon that you can use as a ranged weapon because of a property it has. You can throw it, but its entry remains where it stands on the chart.

Here's the rub. You throw the weapon and 'it counts as a ranged weapon.' However, nothing -stops it- from having all the traits and properties of a melee weapon. It is still a melee weapon, but it also counts as a ranged weapon for that attack.

The assumption that the weapon cannot have both properties simultaneously is merely an assumption and is not explicitly nor implicitly backed by any text in the game.

Regardless, the logic is very simple. If using an object as something else does not explicitly make it stop being what it is, then it still is what it is. It's the one-handed versatile logic applied directly to this situation.

 

[DracoSuave]

Exactly. So while thrown, it follows the rules for ranged weapons... which means you can't use it as a melee weapon when you throw it.

-Hyp.

The Thrown property is an exception to the rule.

Specific trumps general.

Besides, logicly it can't stop being a melee weapon.

A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown
property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and
can be used with ranged attack powers that have the
weapon keyword.

If it is no longer a 'melee weapon'...
then it is no longer a 'melee weapon with the heavy thrown or light thrown property'...
which means it no longer benefits from the rule permitting its use as a ranged weapon...
which means it ceases to be a ranged weapon...
which means it can't be used with the ranged power either.

The only way this rule can work is if it continues to -be- a melee weapon, otherwise the rule self-destructs.

 

[Drudenfusz]

The only way this rule can work is if it continues to -be- a melee weapon, otherwise the rule self-destructs.

You are the man!

 

[luide]

EDIT: looks like I was slow.

The Feat indicates that you use Intelligence instead of Strength when making basic attack with melee weapon.

Now, weapon can't be melee weapon and ranged weapon at the same time, because ranged weapons can't be used to make melee attacks like Hypersmurf said and because melee weapons can only be used to make melee attacks up to the reach of the weapon. (PHB 270).

Unfortunately, because the light/heavy thrown rules references a "melee" weapon, strict RAW will cause the logic issue Dracosuave pointed out. But that just means that specific rule should be errated so it would reference to "weapon with ..." rather than "melee weapon with ..." because nothing else there points to anything that overrides rules for melee weapons. So strict RAW says you can only throw light/heavy thrown weapons to adjacent squares and you can use Intelligent Blademaster then.

Reasonable RAW says that Intelligent Blademaster can't use Int instead of Str when making ranged basic attack with Heavy Thrown weapon, because when you throw it, it isn't melee weapon anymore.

Obvious RAI is that for the Intelligent Blademaster is that they meant "when making melee basic attack with melee weapon" though.

 

[DracoSuave]

No, strict RAW states that normally you can't use a javelin as a ranged weapon, but a property exists that is an exception to that rule and permits it to count as a ranged weapon. No rule exists saying that it ceases to be a melee weapon, however.

So strict RAW permits the general rule to have the exception of thrown weapons, which can be used as ranged weapons. Those that are melee weapons, however, do not stop being melee weapons just because they are used for an alternate purpose allowed by the rules. They merely have another function, same as how heavy blades or staffs do not cease to be weapons when used in implement powers, or how one-handed weapons do not cease to be one-handed when used 'as a two-handed weapon'.

You're assigning unnecessary mutual exclusivity where it does not need to exist. Thrown weapons don't need to cease being melee weapons because the thrown property is an exception to the melee/ranged separation. Exception-based rules design, remember?