Michael Silverbane
Adventurer
This is a lot better than my advice... Which is to punch him in the liver.
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Problem player in my group
- Thread starter EroGaki
- Start date
This is a lot better than my advice... Which is to punch him in the liver.
the Jester
Legend
There's a lot of good advice in this thread, but there's a lot of bad advice too, imho.
Bad advice includes anything that lets Fred keep spoiling the rest of the group's fun; any of the "talk to him and see what happens" stuff- it's already been tried, both by you and the dm. Someone suggested that you suggest a different game to mollify him- why should everyone else in the group have to give up a game they're enjoying to placate a guy who is ruining the fun for everyone?
Look, I'm not saying you should drop Fred as a friend, or just instantly give him the boot. Give him a fair warning: We've already talked about this; one more time and you're out seems fair at this point.
I know it often feels like you're threatening a friendship in situations like this. I've been there. I recognize that, yes, sometimes the friendship will be damaged or destroyed by The Conversation. The thing is, if Fred is a good friend, a real friend, he doesn't want to spoil your fun.. If Fred is a good friend, he should understand that kicking him out of the game (if it becomes necessary) isn't a slight against him; it's the same thing as saying, "Hey, we're going to sushi, but we know you don't like sushi, so we'll see you after we're done." You might need to point this out to him, and you might need to make a real effort to reach out to him after the fact to make sure he feels like he's still your friend.
But seriously, letting him mess up everyone else's fun is the worst possible option. If that is what he enjoys, he isn't your friend at all. If he enjoys playing with the gang, he might need a break. But nobody enjoys playing with a passive-aggressive jerk.
Bad advice includes anything that lets Fred keep spoiling the rest of the group's fun; any of the "talk to him and see what happens" stuff- it's already been tried, both by you and the dm. Someone suggested that you suggest a different game to mollify him- why should everyone else in the group have to give up a game they're enjoying to placate a guy who is ruining the fun for everyone?
Look, I'm not saying you should drop Fred as a friend, or just instantly give him the boot. Give him a fair warning: We've already talked about this; one more time and you're out seems fair at this point.
I know it often feels like you're threatening a friendship in situations like this. I've been there. I recognize that, yes, sometimes the friendship will be damaged or destroyed by The Conversation. The thing is, if Fred is a good friend, a real friend, he doesn't want to spoil your fun.. If Fred is a good friend, he should understand that kicking him out of the game (if it becomes necessary) isn't a slight against him; it's the same thing as saying, "Hey, we're going to sushi, but we know you don't like sushi, so we'll see you after we're done." You might need to point this out to him, and you might need to make a real effort to reach out to him after the fact to make sure he feels like he's still your friend.
But seriously, letting him mess up everyone else's fun is the worst possible option. If that is what he enjoys, he isn't your friend at all. If he enjoys playing with the gang, he might need a break. But nobody enjoys playing with a passive-aggressive jerk.
First I would like to thank everyone who has replied to this thread, whether it be some friendly advice or encouragement. Thanks!! 
Some people have suggested giving Fred the Boot. I'd like to avoid that, if possible. What I'd really like to do is get together with the other players before game and discuss the issue. I hope to do that this week. My main worry is that nothing will get accomplished; two of the other members of my group are very close to Fred, having been friends with him for years. I myself have known him for a while, and think he's cool overall, even though we don't hang out outside of game.
Fred is very sensitive to criticism, and I know that any sort of talking to will make him feel like he's being attacked. Two of our group are his close friends, and that makes me think that they will be uncomfortable with the whole situation.
Ultimately, whether he is kicked out, chastised, or ignored falls on the DM and the others in our group. Were it up to me, I would probably drop him. If I were DMing, he would have been dropped already. I don't want to, because is he a good role player, but the constant tantrums are horrible.
Some people have suggested giving Fred the Boot. I'd like to avoid that, if possible. What I'd really like to do is get together with the other players before game and discuss the issue. I hope to do that this week. My main worry is that nothing will get accomplished; two of the other members of my group are very close to Fred, having been friends with him for years. I myself have known him for a while, and think he's cool overall, even though we don't hang out outside of game.
Fred is very sensitive to criticism, and I know that any sort of talking to will make him feel like he's being attacked. Two of our group are his close friends, and that makes me think that they will be uncomfortable with the whole situation.
Ultimately, whether he is kicked out, chastised, or ignored falls on the DM and the others in our group. Were it up to me, I would probably drop him. If I were DMing, he would have been dropped already. I don't want to, because is he a good role player, but the constant tantrums are horrible.
the Jester
Legend
Good luck. I hope all goes well for you guys, and for Fred, whatever that ends up meaning. 
Tewligan
First Post
Friendship shouldn't excuse childish sulky dickery in a grown man. If he's ruining everyone else's fun with totally effing ridiculous behavior that should embarrass a 10-year-old, then he's a pretty sucky friend who obviously puts his right to bitch above his so-called friends' enjoyment of the game.
DarenCommons
First Post
I agree with Rougerogue and killing it with kindness. If you guys are all friends you should be able to lighten up the mood and keep it that way. I would go the friendly ribbing route myself. Insist on the fun. It sounds like things have gotten ackward so you gotta break that ice.
Renfield
Explorer
Greetings,
As Ero Gaki's GM I figured I should post my two coppers worth. I could easily say that I spend more time around Fred than Ero Gaki, the two have butted heads in the past but I will say Ero has always been the more adult when an issue has been brought up. Here's a little more info on Fred that might give people a little more understanding. Fred is used to playing in the live action RP of White Wolf's World of Darkness. I'm not going to try to describe it for those who don't know but he's involved with the Cammarilla which is like RPGA's Living Greyhawk and other campaigns. He'd a pretty big guy there as he's been involved for over a decade and has a freakishly high MC class. Think of MC as when a new edition kicks in or your character dies you automatically start a new character out at a certain level.
He has quite the following in our region, is quite knowledgeable about the rules system in general and a good role player to boot. A dangerous combination if handled poorly. In our region little happens without his input, knowledge, or having the ability to squish. Move him to a game where he doesn't know the rules quite as well, isn't in the spot light, and can be on the receiving end of the squishing as much as the giving and you have a recipe for... well... what we have.
Fred has already been spoken with about his attitude before. To be fair he's improved, he was confronted about his complaining, which, under the right circumstances is downright entertaining but certainly wasn't in that case. He acknowledged it and promptly stopped. I was impressed and happy with it for a few sessions and then discovered the other problem, his sulking. Get the guy in a good mood when the party is laying waste and I'm feeling bored because I know a nat 20 is what's needed to hit these guys but the enemy will likely be dead by the end of the second round and he's happy as a clam. Get some hard hitting guys who provide a challenge or some unique beasty that he's never seen before and the sulking hits.
He's also annoyed with things not having an explanation that's readily evident to himself. It's hard for me to think of any examples off the top of my head but finding strange objects in places where it seems there is no rhyme or reason for them being there, wondering why a small town of all places is getting such attention and other things irritate him. As I'm running these games from a series of modules there's naturally a back story that the players don't quite understand just yet. One that may or may not be revealed depending on their actions and investigations. This back story explains almost everything but if I were to answer his questions in any fashion other than I have been (vague answers that his character might come up with, etc.) then I'd be spoiling much of the over arching story.
Either way, I intend to talk to him again, I wish to speak to his friends who are in the game about his attitude because I think if they spoke up about it rather than just sitting aside and saying nothing then he might actually tone it down. I want giving him the boot to be the last resort on this matter but I'll make it clear that that is an option I'm considering when I converse with him. Anyway, while I didn't start this thread I wish to thank everyone for their advice on the matter.
Renfield
As Ero Gaki's GM I figured I should post my two coppers worth. I could easily say that I spend more time around Fred than Ero Gaki, the two have butted heads in the past but I will say Ero has always been the more adult when an issue has been brought up. Here's a little more info on Fred that might give people a little more understanding. Fred is used to playing in the live action RP of White Wolf's World of Darkness. I'm not going to try to describe it for those who don't know but he's involved with the Cammarilla which is like RPGA's Living Greyhawk and other campaigns. He'd a pretty big guy there as he's been involved for over a decade and has a freakishly high MC class. Think of MC as when a new edition kicks in or your character dies you automatically start a new character out at a certain level.
He has quite the following in our region, is quite knowledgeable about the rules system in general and a good role player to boot. A dangerous combination if handled poorly. In our region little happens without his input, knowledge, or having the ability to squish. Move him to a game where he doesn't know the rules quite as well, isn't in the spot light, and can be on the receiving end of the squishing as much as the giving and you have a recipe for... well... what we have.
Fred has already been spoken with about his attitude before. To be fair he's improved, he was confronted about his complaining, which, under the right circumstances is downright entertaining but certainly wasn't in that case. He acknowledged it and promptly stopped. I was impressed and happy with it for a few sessions and then discovered the other problem, his sulking. Get the guy in a good mood when the party is laying waste and I'm feeling bored because I know a nat 20 is what's needed to hit these guys but the enemy will likely be dead by the end of the second round and he's happy as a clam. Get some hard hitting guys who provide a challenge or some unique beasty that he's never seen before and the sulking hits.
He's also annoyed with things not having an explanation that's readily evident to himself. It's hard for me to think of any examples off the top of my head but finding strange objects in places where it seems there is no rhyme or reason for them being there, wondering why a small town of all places is getting such attention and other things irritate him. As I'm running these games from a series of modules there's naturally a back story that the players don't quite understand just yet. One that may or may not be revealed depending on their actions and investigations. This back story explains almost everything but if I were to answer his questions in any fashion other than I have been (vague answers that his character might come up with, etc.) then I'd be spoiling much of the over arching story.
Either way, I intend to talk to him again, I wish to speak to his friends who are in the game about his attitude because I think if they spoke up about it rather than just sitting aside and saying nothing then he might actually tone it down. I want giving him the boot to be the last resort on this matter but I'll make it clear that that is an option I'm considering when I converse with him. Anyway, while I didn't start this thread I wish to thank everyone for their advice on the matter.
Renfield
From the GM, it soumds like as a player, he's used to being high level, powerful, and in full knowdledge of the game world, probably with influence on the shaping of that world (for his vamp group). Powerful enough, that he never has to start over with a low level PC.
Contrast that to joining a new group, and D&D where generally you die, you start over.
Basically, he's not liking the lack of power and knowledge and influence.
He's either in the wrong game (not a style he likes), or he's going to need to understand that he has to start over, and learn, build up, and improve his situation in the game.
Contrast that to joining a new group, and D&D where generally you die, you start over.
Basically, he's not liking the lack of power and knowledge and influence.
He's either in the wrong game (not a style he likes), or he's going to need to understand that he has to start over, and learn, build up, and improve his situation in the game.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Thanks for the info but it really changes nothing. If an adult willingly craps on those who are considered friends and does not change then he/she is no friend at all.
I've been in a similar situation (haven't we all?) and one bit of advice that helped our group deal with it was, when you talk to Fred, make sure it's outside the context of the game. Not just before you start playing on Game Night, but in a time and setting completely removed from the game.
It seems that the triggers for his issues revolve around the game itself. He may be much more able to process what you;re saying to him outside of his "element", where he's not so caught up in the mindset of his game. Whatever you all do to get together outside the game, take him aside and have a talk with him about the problems in-game there. You may find, as my group did with our "Fred", that it's a completely different conversation.
It seems that the triggers for his issues revolve around the game itself. He may be much more able to process what you;re saying to him outside of his "element", where he's not so caught up in the mindset of his game. Whatever you all do to get together outside the game, take him aside and have a talk with him about the problems in-game there. You may find, as my group did with our "Fred", that it's a completely different conversation.
