Why do 4e combats grind?

[LostSoul]

Why do 4e combats grind?

The combat grind is when a normal enounter - not a life-or-death, nailbiting struggle - lasts too many rounds. (A better definition would be helpful.) A lot of people have reported experiencing the combat grind.

I haven't experienced the combat grind in 4e. What is going on in my game that isn't in other people's? Hopefully we can figure out what the difference is for people like me and others who have the grind problem.

I think the first place to start is to look at why combats grind. Look at the numbers, how much damage PCs can dish out, how much monsters can take.


For what it's worth, here is some data from myself and Plane Sailing on encounter length. Note the huge differences in the length of combat in rounds.

[sblock=Encounter Length]
My game (5 PCs):

PCs (lvl 4?) vs. Crusaders of Torog (2 Trog Maulers, 1 Trog Impaler, 1 Trog Curse Chanter, 1 Angel of Battle; lvl 7): 9 rounds.

3 PCs - Wizard, Cleric, Rogue (lvl 3?) - vs. The Dead Walk (12 skeleton minions, 2 gravehound zombies, 1 lvl 4 elf archer; lvl 4): 6 rounds.

PCs (lvl 3?) vs. Skeletal Legion (2 skeleton warriors, 8+ decrepit skeletons; lvl 1+): 5 rounds.

PCs (lvl 3?) vs. Crypt of Shadows (10 zombie rotters, 4 zombies; lvl 3): 1 round. (Maybe 2.)

PCs (lvl 3?) vs. Ghoul Warren (1 ghoul, 12 zombie rotters, 2 zombies; lvl 4?): 2 rounds.

PCs (lvl 3?) vs. Some hobgoblins (Warchief, some soldiers, some grunts, deathjump spider; lvl ??): 5 rounds.

PCs (lvl 2?) vs. Torture Chamber (Hobgoblin Torturer (lvl 3 brute), Goblin Warrior, 3 Goblin Sharpshooters; lvl 2): 3 rounds.

PCs (lvl 2?) vs. Excavation Site (3 goblin sharpshooters, 2 guard drakes; lvl 2): 5 rounds.

PCs (lvl 2?) vs. A Lot of Hobgoblins (14 hobgoblin grunts, 9 hobgoblin soldiers, 1 deathjump spider, 1 hobgoblin archer, hobgoblin warcaster, hobgoblin warchief; lvl 10): 11 rounds. (They came in waves, and the PCs lost.)

PCs (lvl 2?) vs. Chieftan's Lair (8 goblin cutters, 5 goblin warriors, Balgron the Fat (lvl 4 lurker); lvl 4): 4 rounds. (Balgron was assassinated, coup de grace.)

PCs (lvl 3?) vs. The Shadow Rift (Kalarel, Scion of Orcus (lvl 8 elite controller), The Thing in the Portal (lvl 4 hazard), Deathlock Wight, 2 Skeleton Warriors; lvl 6): 7 rounds.

PCs (lvl 3?) vs. Cathedral of Shadow (5 vampire spawn, orcus underpriest, 2 human berserkers, 1 dark creeper; lvl 4): 5 rounds.

PCs (lvl 5) vs. The Devourer (1 gelatinous cube, 3 wraiths; lvl 5): 9 rounds (PCs lost this one).

PCs (lvl 5) vs. Pack Attack (7 hyenas; lvl 4): 2 rounds.

PCs (lvl 5) vs. Grimmerzhul Trading Post (4 duergar guards, Kedhira, duergar theurge; lvl 4): 4 rounds.

Plane Sailing's Game:
Recent fights were:
7x 4th level PCs against 1 tiefling heretic, 2 spined devils & 3 orc beserkers (6th level encounter), 8 rounds.

7x 4th level PCs against 3 Duegar Guards, 2 Arblalesters and a Duergar Theurge (5th level encounter), 10 rounds.

7x4th level PCs vs Ogre Savage, 2 Duegar Scouts, Duegar Theurge (4th level encounter) 9 rounds.[/sblock]

 

[Rechan]

I don't know either. In my game, the PCs usually obliterate the monsters before the monsters can even use most of their abilities, unless the monsters are several levels above the PC.

The only time there is apparent grind is when they are dealing with an elite, which has tons of hit points.

 

[Shroomy]

Exactly how long does a combat have to be before it becomes a grind? I think that most 4e encounters are designed to fall in a range between 5-10 rounds, with a distribution on each side of that curve. IMO, I don't find this system expectation to be excessive, but what really constitutes a "grind" is a matter of taste, so others might.

Ultimately, I think there are a couple of reasons why a combat may go over the 10 round range, and here would be the top ones IMO:

*Party composition
*Opponents with high AC and no compensating strategies by the PCs (aid another, flanking for combat advantage, attacks against alternate defenses)
*Poor rolls (has a higher impact due to 4e's math) - this in particular impacts strikers
*Encounters being too high of a level relative to the party.
*Monsters that specifically have abilities that the party cannot easily overcome with their resources.

The one combat that I would characterize as a grind in our campaign was a fight against some wraiths, and that was mostly because our striker, a star pact warlock, couldn't hit them due to some poor rolling and he was the only one with a radiant power that would nullify their regeneration.

 

[RandomCitizenX]

I haven't seen the grind myself. Most combats seem to last exactly 5 rounds for our group.

 

[Rechan]

*Party composition
*Opponents with high AC and no compensating strategies by the PCs (aid another, flanking for combat advantage, attacks against alternate defenses)
*Poor rolls (has a higher impact due to 4e's math) - this in particular impacts strikers
*Encounters being too high of a level relative to the party.
*Monsters that specifically have abilities that the party cannot easily overcome with their resources.

Also, enemies coming in waves/fight pacing.

 

[Prisoner6]

On of my former DMs used to solve the grind problem by adding creatures to the encounter when combat ran too long. This might sound counter-intuitive, but it works.

Suppose the DM realizes around round 6 or 7 that the combat is just going nowhere, or not working to the PCs advantage. He then suddenly introduces a couple extra critters that are somehow attracted to the combat. Maybe a heard of mountain lions smells blood and hopes for some easy prey ... Or some lowly kobolds might see an opportunity to take out a wounded high-level type that they might not normally be able to, and thus gain some serious treasure.

These new creatures then run in and start attacking BOTH sides ... yet the DM can carefully work this to the player's advantage. Say 10 kobolds come, but 7 attack bad guys while 3 engage PCs (theoretically the kobolds might not know the difference - lions certainly woundn't). Suddenly one of the enemy casters is no longer concentrating his spells on the PCs, but on an annoying mountain lion. Or maybe the enemy's best fighter finds himself fighting off not only one of the PCs, but a couple of pesky kobolds, hindering his movement and keeping him distracted. The players should be able to take advanatge of the situation ... and if not, the DM can take advantage of it for them.

Usually combat was sure to end a few rounds after. The newcomers would just tip the balance enough for the PCs to overwhelm the bad guys, and then run away (perhaps with a prize of their own).

 

[Rechan]

Here's another possible issue:

PCs refuse to retreat.

Unless going into the battle they know they are utterly outclassed (and thus try to avoid the fight all together), players will rarely if never retreat from a fight once it's underway. This can cause a problem.

Now, granted, most situations where the "grind" is occurring is where the fight is relatively in the PCs favor, but the monsters are just stubbornly sticking it out.

 

[ki11erDM]

Ever so often an encounter will sputter out instead of going out with a bang. Most of the monsters are dead but a few solders are still alive (high AC high HPs and low damage), there is no chance of the party dying but they will burn some more healing surges so you have to run the encounter.

All in all it is the solders that might cause it to happen… got to make sure they have a way of forcing the players to attack them first over the squishies.

 

[crash_beedo]

I think having an optimized party helps out a lot... multiple strikers, a defender, controller and leader. In my group's party, the leader is a TacLord, and the TacLord brings so much extra hurt, either via his TacLord feat bonuses during action points, or just through commander strike with the strikers, that fights don't tend to last.

But I can clearly see how if the composition was just a little different, we'd be right there (for instance, if we had two defenders instead of two strikers, and a cleric instead of a TacLord). I'm thinking a 4E party needs a potent offense.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Well for us the 'grind' and it is not everytime, happens when the fight is over. We know the PC's are going to win (unless there are a load of NPC 20's and PC 1's) but not all the baddies are dead.
At this point we often have 2 or 3 (and sometimes many more) rounds to go. I can have the baddies:
1. Surrender, fine if they are likely too..then the PC's question then slaughter them . No not evil but dealing with prisoners when you are in the depths of the dungeon is not practical...sometimes they tie them up and leave them (if there is spare rope) but that pretty much amounts to the same thing...
2. Run away, which the PCs never let them do. Cos they don't want them alerting other groups etc, makes sound sense. Also running away often extends the combat because it becomes ranged combat and not all PCs (half of the party) are actually that good at range, thus a lower DPS
3. Die. I often do this..fudge rolls or just let a near NPC kill actually kill it.

I have seen this with all monster types, maybe it is because I have a 4 man party and don't reduce the module number of enemies (but if I did it would be too easy for my guys)

So I just reduce baddie HPs by 1/5 or so, they still have the damage output but arte not going to last those few more rounds...and I fudge as required