Why do 4e combats grind?

Beyond this, I find that combat grind occurs when there are no more meaningful choices to be made. As soon as that happens, the whole thing settles into a slog. Once the PCs run out of encounter and daily powers (or expend all the daily powers they're willing to use on this fight), the chances of grind go way up; it is then incumbent on the DM to either end the fight quickly - e.g., the monsters run away - or ensure that there continue to be meaningful choices after the ones built into the system have been exhausted

Bingo. You can tell when grind is approaching because the players start trying to get clever in an attempt to make up for the lack of punch due to use of encounters and dailies. Everyone knows how the PCs' tactics are going to play out from that point forward and its an exercise in the inevitable. While this certainly existed in 3/3.5E (and earlier editions to an extent), I feel the result is exacerbated in 4E due to the lack of combat maneuvers and effects outside of powers.

Somewhere else in this thread, Banana linked to his 'never run a boring combat again' thread - which is absolutely right, but IMHO, doesn't go far enough. It's not just the opponents who have to bust out new moves and strategies, but the PCs themselves. Show me a PC out of resources, or rather resourcefulness, and I'll show you a player bored out of her mind.
 

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When it gets to that slowdown semi-stalemate phase, whichever side feels like they're more likely to lose after the prolonged grind should radically switch tactics and change the rules of engagement.

If the PCs are at the point where they're out of goodies, and can see that they have a less-than-excellent chance of winning the slugfest that remains, they should stop trading blows and start doing creative stuff. Moving around, running away and regrouping, trying to get into better tactical positions, trying to maneuver enemies into disadvantageous or dangerous places, using the various other combat actions available besides just "I attack with my at-will power."

Same for the monsters, if they're the ones with the short end of the stick. Run away, try to get reinforcements, try to hide and ambush, lure the enemies into traps, find a new place to make a stand that changes the dynamics of the battle.

Start using grabs and bull rushes and full defense and aid another, start using terrain and skill stunts and the like. Encourage the PCs to be creative, to be flexible, to reposition themselves when things have gotten stale. Make the monsters dynamic, too. Have them go berserk and become suicidal at some point, or have them go into sneaky careful guerrilla warfare mode and turn the fight into a running battle which covers a large swath of the dungeon or other area.

You don't need encounter and daily powers to make a combat exciting, or to make lots of interesting, shifting, meaningful tactical choices. A few types of encounters may be the exception, but for the most part, you can prevent any fight from turning into a boring toe-to-toe at-will slugfest grind. Either force the PCs to go into "desperate measures" mode or have the monsters do so.



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Or start doing the creative stuff early.

I remember I was in a one-shot, and we were in a very tightly constrained area (10x2) with several spiders. So the first thing I do is I leap up on a statue, put my feet on the statue's shoulders, my back against the wall, and *shoved* the statue onto the spider nearest to me. First the DM goes '2d8 and restrained', then he decided 'the spider spending every round to get out is annoying; I say it just dies'.
 

Like anything you do in life when it becomes systematic and repetitive you get stuck in a rut and what is only 5 minutes may seem like 5 hours because you have done it all before already.

EEAABD-kill-rest-EEAABBB-kill-rest....

The tap challenges don't really work to well. More crap for the DM to forget and then stuff has to be looked up to find it when you add a trap to try to spice up the combat so it isn't everyone running around on flat ground.
 

Yeah, we've all talked about this a lot the last few weeks. IMO, we notice it more than we did in previous editions because the expectations have changed. 4e combat has moments that are flat-out brilliant, and if you slip off that peak into a "6-7 creatures in a room standing there smacking each other with at-wills" phase, then the drop-off from "dynamic, tactical moving combat balanced on a knife's edge either way" is very noticeable.

I don't see grind very often, and if I do, I try and take steps to remedy it quickly. I think these are the major reasons for grind, as well as the solutions:

1) Players taking too long - if it takes someone more than 2 minutes to take their action, you have a problem. Solution for this is straight-forward - work with the player to have them figure out the basic time-savers - learn your powers ahead of time, write down your attack and dmg bonuses so you don't have to add them up, roll attack and damage dice together, etc.

2) Bad luck - with combat more balanced, if the players start rolling low for a sustained period, they're in trouble, and then you're either looking at a TPK/retreat situation if the monsters are dangerous, or else grind-space if the monsters are less deadly. Not a whole ton you can do here - sometimes fudging the monsters rolls behind the screen or adjusting monster hp on the fly works, sometimes you just have to live with it and hope their dice warm up.

3) Crappy party composition - if the party doesn't have a lot of damage dealers and/or good leaders, they're going to take longer to slog through stuff. Solution - either purposely change the monsters you use against these guys (lower level, less hp, more glass cannons [presumably a low-dpr party has good defenses, so get monsters that have good attacks and poor defense to match up against them]), or suggest some character changes/rebuilds if the players are open to that.

4) Crappy encounter creation - I'm convinced this is the leading cause of grindspace. If you're good at DMing 4e combat, it has the best fights of any edition of D&D. If you stack up a bunch of hobgoblins in a 30x30 room without interesting features, it blows chunks (I'm looking at you, Keep on the Shadowfell!). If you dump a dragon by itself in a cave, things suck. The solution here is to be a better DM - 4e encounter creation is just as important of a skill as making interesting NPCs, adjudicating rules, etc - practice it and get better at it. Get good combinations of monsters that synergize well; put the fights in interesting locations; make the fights mean something; be fuzzy with your math - hitpoints are there for dramatic purposes, not as a holy law handed down from Gygax. Have your monsters move and flow - eat those attacks of opportunity from the fighter to get to the cleric behind him - the fighter will have more fun, the cleric will be terrified, the result of the combat will be less predictable, and your monsters will die faster.

The two most important lessons I've learned here are A) terrain matters SO much, and B) don't play your monsters like you play characters! Monsters are there to terrify your players, make them fear death, and then die - be careless with your hp as a monster - your goal is to do damage at any cost - a monster fighting a careful, tactically perfect defensive fight intended to maximize its survival and slowly whittle down the PCs is a perfect recipe for grindspace.

So, my final parting word in this rant here: Only YOU can prevent grindspace! There's a fantastic game out there waiting for you to DM it - go out there and learn how to do it!
 

4) Crappy encounter creation - I'm convinced this is the leading cause of grindspace. If you're good at DMing 4e combat, it has the best fights of any edition of D&D. If you stack up a bunch of hobgoblins in a 30x30 room without interesting features, it blows chunks (I'm looking at you, Keep on the Shadowfell!). If you dump a dragon by itself in a cave, things suck. The solution here is to be a better DM - 4e encounter creation is just as important of a skill as making interesting NPCs, adjudicating rules, etc - practice it and get better at it. Get good combinations of monsters that synergize well; put the fights in interesting locations; make the fights mean something; be fuzzy with your math - hitpoints are there for dramatic purposes, not as a holy law handed down from Gygax. Have your monsters move and flow - eat those attacks of opportunity from the fighter to get to the cleric behind him - the fighter will have more fun, the cleric will be terrified, the result of the combat will be less predictable, and your monsters will die faster.

This I think is the essense of it. You need to not only think about the monsters in the encounter, but also what the setting is as well. Give them a reason they chose this place to fight the PCs.

If there's a pit, give them some type of way to shove the PCs into that pit. (In an adventure I'm writing now for my next game I have goblins riding boars... I put them next to a cliff, so they could use the boars to shove PCs off the cliff.)

Put more interactive stuff in there.

PCs running out of encounter powers? Interactive stuff should function as basically encounter powers. This will tempt PCs (and the monsters) to do stuff other then just flinging at-wills. Do you chosoe an at-will or to drop the cauldron full of burning oil on your enemy?
 

PCs running out of encounter powers? Interactive stuff should function as basically encounter powers. This will tempt PCs (and the monsters) to do stuff other then just flinging at-wills. Do you choose an at-will or to drop the cauldron full of burning oil on your enemy?

Indeed. One other tip - err on the side of making the combat too hard. This does several good things for you:

1) Combat is automatically more interesting if there's more risk. Obviously you need to vary the level of risk (not every fight is a titanic life vs death struggle), but it's always more interesting to err on the side of "too hard" instead of "too easy".

2) It's easier to DM your way out of a "too hard" fight - you can always have the monsters make a tactical mistake, or fudge their rolls/hp, or bring in a deus ex machina - there a million ways an experienced DM can save a party's life if he needs to. As the multitude of "grindspace" threads indicate, it's harder to work a combat back up to being interesting if it's dropped into grindspace.

3) It forces your party to get better - if their lives are on the line, players develop better synergy and tactics, and get better at killing monsters. They stop blowing all of their encounter powers in the first rounds and saving all of their daily powers "in case I need them later", and learn to use both types of powers better. If they're better at killing monsters, combat goes faster, and you get less grind when you do ease off a little and give them an easier combat.

4) Everyone comlains about grind happening when they run out of encounter powers - well, if you spend 2 of the first 5 rounds of combat unconscious, you're probably still going to have a couple encounter/daily powers in your back pocket when the warlord gets you back on your feat in round 6. :)
 

Tuesday night, we had two encounters:

First one was two advanced bone dracolich mongrels (level elite brutes) and 5 traps (basically they were replacing the green dragon in Thunderspire Labyrinth). Fight lasted 6 rounds, so no grind there. The geylord was almost brought below 0, but that was the only one that was really under pressure.

Then, later one, while on the way to find a portal to the Feywild, they bumped into an Ettin Spiritcaller* (11 elite controller) and his pet dire bear (11 elite brute). Fight lasted 6 rounds. Again, no grind. But it was a tough fight, 3 players were down and counting, before the two monsters were dead. Cleric was down twice.

In real time, both fights lasted less than an hour.

Next time, it's going to be a fight against a 10th level solo dragon and it's 10 level 9 minions (n+3 fight). Maybe there we will experience this grind. But so far, it's just perfect for us.

*Ettins totally rock in 4e, with their two seperate initiatives. Players loved that fight.
 


I see heavy use of brutes. Someone earlier suggested using brutes rather than soldiers to avoid grindspace... what role is the dragon?

Skirmisher. With AC 26 (It's the one from Draconomicon, with druid class instead of warlock. And more HP's, since I think they made a mistake in the book.

And yes, I agree (and have been saying several times) that soldiers, especially elite ones, can (in theory) cause problems for some groups.

However, Bone Mongrels had AC 23, the Dire Bear AC 25, and the Ettin has a respectable AC 28. A level 9 soldier would have around AC 25.

(Ettin was actually level 12 elite, I was going from memory)
 

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