Why do 4e combats grind?

[gribble]

Skirmisher. With AC 26 (It's the one from Draconomicon, with druid class instead of warlock. And more HP's, since I think they made a mistake in the book.

Cool - I'd be interested in hearing how it pans out. So far Dragons have been the worst culprits in the 4e game I play... although the last one we fought wasn't so bad (however the DM did halve it's HP, as is standard practice for our shared campaign now)

 

[Vayden]

Cool - I'd be interested in hearing how it pans out. So far Dragons have been the worst culprits in the 4e game I play... although the last one we fought wasn't so bad (however the DM did halve it's HP, as is standard practice for our shared campaign now)

I haven't found a perfect solution to solos yet. The last solo I used in my homebrew was the 10th level skirmisher that can make clones of itself (so less solo-y), and the last time I used a solo was the dragon encounter in Thunderspire. That seems to be the way to do it - have the solo at or below the party's level, and mix in a bunch of traps or interesting terrain. Or just use the solo as part of an encounter group - ie, solo dragon + 2-4 lackeys.

 

[Jack99]

Cool - I'd be interested in hearing how it pans out. So far Dragons have been the worst culprits in the 4e game I play... although the last one we fought wasn't so bad (however the DM did halve it's HP, as is standard practice for our shared campaign now)

They should fight it on monday, I will make sure to take notes and report back here.

 

[gribble]

They should fight it on monday, I will make sure to take notes and report back here.

Thanks man, much appreciated. I'm particularly interested in hearing about what the players did to prevent the grind (assuming of course that it doesn't).

 

[LostSoul]

I took some detailed notes in tonight's game and I'll post them soon.

We had a hard-fought level 6 encounter (5 level 6 PCs) and a level 4 encounter which turned into a level 9 encounter, the PCs forced to flee.

The first encounter lasted 90 minutes and hung in the balance until the final round (it lasted 7 rounds).

The next encounter was slightly over an hour and also went 7 rounds, with the PCs fleeing in the last round.

 

[Rechan]

I took some detailed notes in tonight's game and I'll post them soon.

We had a hard-fought level 6 encounter (5 level 6 PCs) and a level 4 encounter which turned into a level 9 encounter, the PCs forced to flee.

I'm really intrigued to see how those things occurred.

 

[LostSoul]

Kuthrik Nest

PCs:
Bren the Bold (Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue 6) (player not present, run by another player)
Jace (Half-Elf Infernal Pact Warlock 6)
Wexley (Human Sword & Board Fighter 6)
Malchior (Human Tactical Warlord/Arcane Initiate 6) (player not present, run by another player)
Armok Zed (Human Wizard/Cleric multiclass 6)

Opposition:
5 Kuthrik Adults
1 Kuthrik Hive Lord

Setup: The PCs are heading through the dungeon. A random encounter is rolled. We throw down a map that includes a river, a bridge, and a small building.

The players place their PCs on the bridge, about 10 squares away from the building. The Kuthrik are in the building. One adult steps out the broken wall of the building and pokes its head out. It screeches in hunger.

Roll for initiative.

Round 1:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish at range on the adult. Hit, 24 damage.
Jace: Eldritch Blast at range on the adult. Hit, 14 damage.
Wexley: Move up to the adult. Crushing Blow? (Martial Power). Hit, 14 damage. At this point he spots the rest of the Kuthriks. Takes 2 damage.
Malchior: Move up. Scorching Burst. Two adults take 8 points of damage, one is critted for 18.
Adults: I didn't take notes for the bad guys. Wexley was attacked. He and Malchior were shot with poison spikes. Wexley has resist poison 5. An adult burrowed through the building to flank Wexley. Another adult burrowed through the building and nailed Jace with a poison dart, slowing him. I think one shifted by Wexley and got hit.
Hive Lord: Move. Move. Action Point: Acid Burst. Nailed all the PCs save Wexley.
Armok: Icy Rays? One adult hit for 8, the Hive Lord for 13.

Round 2:

Bren the Bold (weakened, ongoing acid 5): Sly Flourish the Hive Lord. 6 damage. Move away. Failed save?
Jace (weakened, slowed, ongoing acid 5, ongoing poison 5): Hellish Rebuke the adult who burrowed through the building. 6 damage. Failed both saves?
Wexley: Activate Rain of Blows? Sweeping Blow. Hit two adults and the hive lord for 8 damage. Takes 2 damage.
Malchior (weakened, ongoing acid 5): Fire Shroud. Hit two adults for 6 damage, ongoing fire 5. Failed save?
Adults: Take damage from Wexley's Rain of Blows. Move in and attack Wexley, all have flanking, all deal double damage. One hits for mid-teens damage. The other is immobilized and shoots poison spikes at Jace?.
Hive Lord: Acid Burst. Hits Jace, Malchior, Wexley.
Armok: Cloud of Daggers on the Hive Lord. 14 damage.

Round 3:

Bren the Bold (weakened, ongoing acid 5): Sly Flourish, 6 damage. Makes save?
Jace (weakened, slowed, ongoing acid 5, ongoing poison 5): Hellish Rebuke for 6 damage. (I have "3x4" written down, I'm not sure if hit more creatures or not.) Saves versus one weakened, fails another, uses Dark Luck to make save.
Wexley (weakened, ongoing acid 5): Comeback Strike. Miss; AP: hit Hive Lord. 12 damage?
Malchior: Warlord's Favour; Miss.
Adults: Take damage from Wexley's Rain of Blows. 3 Attack Wexley; one hits for decent damage. (One was dead by now.) The other charges Malchior, hits hard.
Hive Lord: Takes damage from Wexley's Rain of Blows. Shifts back to get Wexley and Malchior, gets hit by Wexley for ~6 damage. Acid Burst hits Malchior.
Armok: Bigby's Icy Fist on Hive Lord; hits & AP sustain for a total of 29 damage.

Round 4:

Bren the Bold: Miss.
Jace (slowed, poisoned): Fire Bolt, Miss. Action Point: Hunger of Hadar on Hive Lord.
Wexley (weakened, ongoing acid 5): Crushing Blow on an adult. Hit, 6 damage.
Malchior (weakened, acid?): Viper's Strike, hits, didn't write down the damage. Assume 4-8.
Adults: Take damage from Wexley's Rain of Blows. Delay.
Hive Lord: Tries to break free of icy fist; fails. Acid Burst hits Jace, Wexley, Malchior.
Adults: 3 attack Wexley, 1 hit. One attacks Malchior, hits. All hits are around 15 damage.
Armok: Cloud of Daggers (or Cause Fear?) on Hive Lord; misses. Sustains Icy Fist for 10 damage.

Round 5:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish Hive Lord for 16 damage.
Jace (weakened? poisoned?): Diabolic Grasp; Miss.
Wexley: Crushing Blow on Hive Lord; 9 damage.
Malchior (weakened?): Viper's Strike; hit, didn't record damage.
Hive Lord: Nearly dies from the Hunger of Hadar. Breaks free of Icy Fist. Acid Burst Wexley and Malchior.
Adults: 3 attack Wexley, at least one hits for 21 damage. He drops. 1 attacks Malchior, he drops.
Armok: Rushes into the mix, Thunderwave. Hits one for 9?

Round 6:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish one of the adults, 16 damage.
Jace: Eldritch Blast one of the adults, 18 damage.
Wexley: Makes Death Save.
Malchior: Makes Death Save.
Adults: Shoot poison darts?
Hive Lord: <dies>
Armok: hnd? Whatever that power is. Oh, HAND. Bigby's Icy Fist. 19 damage.

Round 7:

Bren the Bold: fnb? 16 damage whatever that is. I think that killed one.
Jace: Eldritch Blast, kills one.

Fight over. 90 minutes real-time. (I spent forever on the Hive Lord's first turn, then had to look up burrowing... oh well.)

Notes: I didn't keep track of everything that happened (like when someone was weakened by the acid or poisoned); I'm sure I left out a bunch of stuff. I didn't keep track of who attacked whom so I might have screwed that up. I recall screwing up the burrowing for the first two adults, making them just move 3 instead of 1 through solid stone.

The fight basically boiled down to a vicious melee with the kuthrik adults mobbing Wexley and the Hive Lord blasting Wexley and Malchior while the others tried to hurt the Hive Lord from range. The one adult who was not engaged with Wex was able to harass the other PCs well enough.

 

[LostSoul]

South Gate of the Horned Hold

*** Spoilers for Thunderspire Labyrinth ***

[sblock]
PCs:
Bren the Bold (Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue 6) (player not present, run by another player)
Jace (Half-Elf Infernal Pact Warlock 6)
Wexley (Human Sword & Board Fighter 6)
Malchior (Human Tactical Warlord/Arcane Initiate 6) (player not present, run by another player)
Armok Zed (Human Wizard/Cleric multiclass 6)

Opposition:
1 Ogre Savage
4 Orc Raiders

Setup: The PCs have reached the south gate of the Horned Hold where they hope to free the slaves from Winterhaven. The duergar, led by Murkelmor, Paladin of Asmodeus, know that they are coming but they expect the PCs to enter through the main gate. They are on the alert but have no specific plan to respond to an incursion on the southern gate.

The PCs spy the door. No handle; it's locked by a bar. They hide around the corner and Bren the Bold knocks on the door, then slips away and hides. The Ogre on the other side opens a peephole and looks around. Bren easily makes a Stealth check; the Ogre sees nothing.

Bren's intent is to trick the Ogre into opening the door, so he makes a Bluff check (prompted by the DM). He aces it. The Ogre opens the door and splashes water all around - it thinks that invisible duergar are playing pranks on it. It spots Wexley's shield and prepares for combat; that's when Bren attacks. (Bren made a Stealth check, Wexley failed his.)

Roll for initiative.

Surprise Round:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish vs. Ogre. 21 damage.

Round 1:

Bren the Bold: Move up to Ogre. Bait and Switch, 20 damage. Now he's in a room full of orcs! Attempt to shift under bed to hide; fail Acrobatics check to slip under the bed, falls prone.
Wexley: Move up to Ogre (who is now outside the room). Steel Serpent Strike. 30 damage.
Jace: Move up to Ogre. Curse Ogre. Eldritch Blast Ogre. 17 damage.
Malchior: Move up. Scorching Burst on two orcs. Hit Orc 1 for 11 damage.
Ogre: I believe he crits against Wexley. He can't shift, so he stays where he is. 111 HP doesn't go as far as it used to.
Orc 1: One moves up to Bren and misses with a Greataxe attack.
Orc 2: Moves up to Bren and misses.
Orc 3: Grabs a log from the fireplace. Throws it at Bren, hits for 1d6+3 damage. Anyone entering or ending their turn in that square takes 5 damage. Moves.
Orc 4: Opens door. Moves. Opens door to Murkelmor's chamber. Bren can now see a big, mean duergar with a massive maul and a duergar theurge.
Armok: Icy Rays? against the Ogre and Orc 3. Hits both for 14.

Round 2:

Bren the Bold: Delays.
Wexley: Crushing Blow vs. the Ogre. Hits for 15 damage. Ogre is killed. Moves into room.
Bren the Bold: Stands with a minor action. Positioning Strike against Orc 1. Hits for 11 damage. Moves back, taking an OA from Orc 1. OA misses.
Jace: Moves into room. Eldritch Blast ??. Hits for 20 damage.
Malchior: Charges Orc 2. Hits for 11 damage.
Orc 1: Attacks ?
Orc 2: Attacks Malchior.
Orc 3: Throws axe.
Orc 4: Charges Wexley?
Armok: Moves into room? Ray of Frost? against orc 3. Hits for 10 damage.
Murkelmor: Moves out of his room to another door. Opens door.
Theurge: Moves, blasts Malchior with Firebolt.
Shock Troopers: Move towards PCs, maybe Charge.

Round 3:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish. Miss.
Wexley: Crushing Blow against Orc 1. Hits for 15.
Jace: Eldritch Blast Orc 1. Hits for 16 damage. Kills him.
Malchior: Viper's Strike, misses.
Orc 2: Attacks Malchior.
Orc 3: Throws axe at Armok?
Orc 4: Attacks Wexley, probably misses.
Armok: Casts Icy cloud, nails the two shock troopers for 15 damage. Misses Murkelmor, I think.
Murkelmor: Enters Icy cloud, takes 7 damage. Gloats? Misses vs. Wexley?
Theurge: Blasts using Brimstone hail, hits Malchior, Wexley, an orc, Bren?
Shock Trooper 1: Engage Wexley, miss.
Shock Trooper 2: Smash Armok. This might have dropped him.

Round 4:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish vs. Orc 4? (It's getting almost impossible to figure out who hit whom.) 21 damage.
Wexley: Tide of Iron. 9 damage.
Jace: Diabolic Grasp. Misses.
Malchior: Viper's Strike. 9 Damage vs. Orc 2.
Orc 2: Attacks Malchior.
Orc 3: Throws axe.
Orc 4: Attacks Wexley?
Armok: Fails Death Save.
Murkelmor. Totally misses again.
Theurge: Moves up to use Wave of Despair.
Shock Troopers: Attack, maybe one hits.

Round 5:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish, 13 damage.
Wexley: Sweeping Blow, hits 2 for 7 damage.
Jace: Uses Armour of Agythys, uses AP, misses.
Malchior: ?? Misses?? Heals Armok.
Orcs: attack
Armok: "cf"? I don't know what that is.
Murkelmor: Missed?
Theurge: Wave of Despair.
Shock Troopers: Fight on!

Round 6:

Bren the Bold: Blinding Barrage, 21 damage, kills an orc I think, AP: sly flourish.
Wexley: Crushing Blow?, 14 damage.
Jace: Eldritch Blast, 15 damage.
Malchior: Stand the Fallen vs. a Shock Trooper, hits for 40 damage.
Orcs: ??
Armok: Misses and Dimension Doors away.
Murkelmor: Crits Wexley. Heals Shock Trooper.
Theurge: ??
Shock Trooper (one is dead by now): Attacks Wexley. Crit?

Round 7:

Bren the Bold: Sly Flourish, 13 damage.
Wexley: <retreats>
Jace: <retreats>
Malchior: <retreats>
Orcs: ??
Armok: <retreats more> Uses Mage Hand to slam door shut.
Murkelmor: Opens door.
Theurge: Brimstone Hail, drops Malchior.

End.

Notes: I really can't remember who attacked whom here. I think one orc was left standing at the end. One shock trooper died just as it became large. Another nearly died. Murkelmor had taken a total of 27 damage. They used their beards a few times, I just forget when. Maybe if I get out the minis I'll come back and edit it.
[/sblock]

 

[LostSoul]

Those notes aren't so great after all. Next time (which won't be for a month) I'll try to take better ones - make a note of where the damage comes from and who is hitting whom. I don't know if I can spare the time to write down the monster's actions, though.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Those notes aren't so great after all. Next time (which won't be for a month) I'll try to take better ones - make a note of where the damage comes from and who is hitting whom. I don't know if I can spare the time to write down the monster's actions, though.

Yeah! Get it right!! I'm just kidding of course. You have already done more play by play record keeping than I would ever do. I sometimes don't put as much work into preparing for a game as you do for an after action report!

As far as time is concerned 90 minutes on a chance encounter with some bugs is too long. Maybe its because I only get to play in 1 5 hour or so long session once every two weeks. If we could play more often (and longer) then longer combats wouldn't be such a big issue.

90 min on a random fight is still too long even if we had more time, now that I think about it.