Two-blades ranger with two bastards - kosher?

I'm not sure why so many people focus on realism in D&D. Those same people don't tend to complain, in my experience, about a wizards ability to shoot magic missiles at his foes. I expect most would agree that historically, that didn't happen?

To be fair, I recall saying dual wielding bastard swords would be ok rules wise, I am just saying personally its a bit silly. *edit* I encourage everyone to try it sometime. Its an eye opening experience

Their is no precedent of one shooting magic missiles so theirs really nothing to criticized about it, but swords have a long historical history that can be criticized.

I really like the idea of reskining dual wielding bastard swords to a feat that adds to ones skill of wielding shorter weapons. dual wielding broad swords.... oh yea!
 
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The statement above that people didn't use them and shields at the same time is false - they were most commonly used with the other hand consumed with something else.

When used two handed, they were hefted (in D&D terms, slashing).

When used one handed, they were used more like an Epee (rapier).

They were also one of the first swords that featured a blade guard that curved down behind the fingers - but not to protect the fingers. It was actually used to grip the sword half-sideways in order to be able to quickly slash something one handed without breaking your wrist.

Many different tactics were used with the blade and if you wielded a shield, you cut yourself from that versatility, forced yourself to use only one handed techniques and the sword wasn't optimized for it. It was too long to be a good one handed slashing weapon and a thrusting style couldn't use a shield larger than a buckler without it being a serious hinderance. Fighting one handed could done, but it couldn't be done better than with a dedicated one handed weapon.

Beside powerful two handed slash, half-swording techniques (gripping the sword halfway on the blade to wield it like a shortt spear) were extremely common in order to punch through hard armor. With a shield, you can't do that.

One handed, it was best used to thrust. But it was hardly an excellent one handed thrusting weapon. The sword was versatile, but only as long as both hands were free. If you had a shield strapped to the left arm, versatilty was gone and you were left with a sword inferior to a pure one handed weapon.

But that is mostly moot; by the time the bastard sword was rising, the shield was dying.

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There is bound to be a lot of opinions in any comments about how to use swords from the longsword family (such as the bastard sword). Not a whole lot of hard documentation exist.

So I guess a IMO should be attached to the post with the mention of minimal personal experience (I've done some fencing, martial arts and had in my hands a few a middle-age weapon replicas).

The Flower of battle is one of the only books with solid info on what the sword master of the era taught and pretty much the basis of any expert opinion of middle age martial arts. Never read it, but read books quoting it (amusingly, first time I saw it used as a source and it came to my attention is by the Riddle of Steel RPG!) and it seems to me that the consensus was that swords longer than the knightly arming sword use in the 12th century should be wielded either two handed. There is a section talking about the benefits of occasionnaly doing one handed maneuvers but it's not the meat of the book. Personal experience, for what little it is worth, also tells me that. Then, later masters would developp one handed fencing with its focus on thrust; swords would be refined for this purpose along with these development and in fact the bastard sword maybe seen as one of the early step toward that style. But it's not nearly there; fighting a purely thrusting style with bastard sword seems unwise to me.

Personnally, in real life, if catapulted through time and forced to choose, I'd never consider wielding a bastard sword without having my other hand free (maybe with a buckler; I have no experience of it and no real idea of what it'd feel like). If I had to wear a shield, there are dozens of other weapons I'd prefer using, from the roman gladius to a simple, appropriately sized club!
 
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I'm sorry, I think that by my statement that you bolded, I implied that the opposite was true. That wasn't my intent either.

Only that it was commonly used one handed or two as the situation and the wielder required.

But it was certainly not shunned to be used either way (with something else in the other hand, or without).

Though I can't recall anyone really dual wielding anything in history, much less a bastard sword, but then, just because no one did doesn't make it any less valid for a game where doing so is part of the rules.
 

Dudes.

It's a big-ass sword, and you're so amazingly badass you whirl two of them around like they were cheerleader's batons.

"Historical" has never been a big part of D&D.
 

I'm sorry, I think that by my statement that you bolded, I implied that the opposite was true. That wasn't my intent either.

Only that it was commonly used one handed or two as the situation and the wielder required.

Yes, exactly. A versatile weapon. I'm just saying that for it to be a versatile weapon, you need both hands, otherwise it is just a subpar one handed weapon.

Dudes.

It's a big-ass sword, and you're so amazingly badass you whirl two of them around like they were cheerleader's batons.

"Historical" has never been a big part of D&D.

Oh, that point was concded early in the thread. Which is why now we're just having fun straying.
 


The Flower of battle is one of the only books with solid info on what the sword master of the era taught and pretty much the basis of any expert opinion of middle age martial arts.

This is true, and false. It is a solid book about sword combat in 1410, but theirs other books, notably by Liechtenauer's students. The Flower of Battle is focused on Italian sword fighting while Liechtenauer's work is based on Germanic sword fighting (KDF). Both used similar swords but they offer a very different idea of how to use them even though they have overlapping move sets.

I hear some manuscripts of Spanish longsword fighting may become available soon as well. As we speak the sword fighting community is exploding with lost documents being discovered and translated.
 
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Dudes.

It's a big-ass sword, and you're so amazingly badass you whirl two of them around like they were cheerleader's batons.

"Historical" has never been a big part of D&D.


Patently false statement. D&D was founded on historical basis wherever possible, from weaponry to mythology.

It's not even a matter of strength but physiology. I can lift two sacks of grain/dog food/sand/whatever but can't spin them like nunchuks. The weight distribution, size, etc. are the issue. I'm 6'4" with 37" arms and I can't come close to using two of those swords because the human(oid) body is not built to do so. Something with a much larger wingspan could, but character races are built around slight deviations of the human physique.

It's a cheesy (imo) rules loophole and that's fine, but many of us like realism in our game because, well, we happen to like not feeling cheesy. You have your opinion, we have ours. It's all good.

I'm craving Sharp Cheddar now though. Dang threads.
 
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Patently false statement. D&D was founded on historical basis wherever possible, from weaponry to mythology.

Yeah, those historical rust monsters, gelatinous cubes, and xorn...not to mention Vance's wizards, Tolkien's elves, Celtic druids, Arthurian knights, and Shao-lin monks all going into battle against Poul Anderson's trolls and Lovecraftian mind flayers. Yeah. Historical accuracy has been the basis of D&D since 1975. Yup. No doubt about it.

Perhaps you meant Chivalry&Sorcery?

It's a cheesy rules loophole and that's fine, but many of us like realism in our game because, well, we happen to like not feeling cheesy. You have your opinion, we have ours.

If we were talking almost any other version of D&D than 4e, you'd have a better point. But when you're playing a game where all wounds heal overnight, where it's as easy to keep a frost giant grabbed as it is a kobold (of the same level and strength), and where the rogue can make an "immobilized" being leap 20 feet to the left by stabbing it with a dagger, worrying about being able to "realistically" wield two huge swords is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic -- when it's on the bottom of the sea.
 

It's a cheesy (imo) rules loophole.

Cheesy I can see (it's a matter of opinion), but "rules loophole"? It's patently a design decision - the designers saw enough people trying to build rangers with two bastard swords that they just took the pain out of it.
 

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