Why do 4e combats grind?

[Crazy Jerome]

Sorry, but add me to the "I don't get it" crowd. "you probably want to up the difficulty until you're routinely dropping PC's into the negatives"? Is that really what you meant to say? If so...Good God. Do you feel that way when you're playing as well as DM'ing?

KO's are not thrilling for the player who's KO'ed. Being benched is frustrating, disempowering, and yawn-inducing.

Dausuul already answered, but I'd say that you to up the seriousness of the fight until most of the players think it is reasonably possible that something bad could happen to them.

Now, where that is naturally depends on the players. I've got players that don't feel really threatened until half the party or more is dying, with the survivors outnumbered, and healing in short supply. Then I've got players that feel threatened the moment some tough monster lands a crit or nasty effect on their buddy. So, a reasonable approximation of when the group feels threatened is when some of them are having trouble staying in the fight.

But naturally that varies not only with the players, but the encounter. And past history matters, too. I can make half the players want to flee for their lives simply by introducting some obviously hybrid big cat or spider monster--becaue they have had sufficient bad experiences with those in the past.

 

[Celtavian]

re

My friend who does most of the DMing just quit running one of our campaigns and is looking into other game systems. The tedious round to round bookkeeping for 5 players burned him out. He got tired of keeping track of who had ongoing damage, who was slowed, who was dazed, what monsters had used their recharge powers, what monsters used their encounters or dailies, who got what bonus for standing where, who is marked, and all the tedious little combat modifiers that both players and monsters can do from one round to the next. It gave him a huge headache and ruined his enjoyment as a DM because he had to focus so intensely on keeping track of round to round combat that he had trouble getting himself back into the storytelling process.after a hour or two combat.

I've run the game quite a few times too. It is a very tedious combat system as you progress in level. The characters can do a ton each round and so can the higher level monsters. And though they kept the system simple, they also made it very heavy. Not complex, just heavy. As in you can end up making a three or four saves each round at the end of your turn and having to keep track of a ton of modifiers. Simple to track, but there so many of them they bog down the game trying to remember them all.

Hopefully we can find a system with a little less tedious combat system. Something more fluid and enjoyable with options that actually feel like different combat options that one can envision rather that stuff like Come and Get It where you're wracking your brain to figure out why the mindless undead just responded to the fighters insults and goading to come towards him and set themselves up for a sweeping attack.

 

[LostSoul]

My friend who does most of the DMing just quit running one of our campaigns and is looking into other game systems. The tedious round to round bookkeeping for 5 players burned him out.

That would burn me out, too.

Luckily there are 5 players at my table who can keep track of effects on their own.

I've run the game quite a few times too. It is a very tedious combat system as you progress in level.

Only at level 6, so I have yet to encounter this. The last session saw the PCs with a bunch of effects on them at once, but since they track those effects and those effects were what was making the encounter interesting, I wouldn't call them tedious.

Hopefully we can find a system with a little less tedious combat system. Something more fluid and enjoyable with options that actually feel like different combat options that one can envision rather that stuff like Come and Get It where you're wracking your brain to figure out why the mindless undead just responded to the fighters insults and goading to come towards him and set themselves up for a sweeping attack.

If you can't come up with an explanation for that, it's probably not the system for you.

 

[Felon]

Hopefully we can find a system with a little less tedious combat system. Something more fluid and enjoyable with options that actually feel like different combat options that one can envision rather that stuff like Come and Get It where you're wracking your brain to figure out why the mindless undead just responded to the fighters insults and goading to come towards him and set themselves up for a sweeping attack.

...or why oozes, swarms, spirits, and creatures of any size are all just as susceptable to being knocked prone, pushes, pulled, and slid as Joe Blow.

Yes, that's one lousy thing about 4e. You can't provide monsters with appropriate immunites because the system isn't designed for players to respond dynamically, to switch up their pitches in the heat of battle. Heroes have a fixed handful of powers, and he's supposed to be able to mash his hotkeys with a sense of reliability. This was what was mentioned is a recent D&D podcast when discussing why there are no disarm or sunder rules in 4e (though not in those exact words, of course).

 

[Xris Robin]

As a player, if nobody is knocked unconscious during a combat, it shouldn't have been a combat. Personally, the closer to a TPK we are, the more fun I'm having.

 

[firesnakearies]

I pretty much agree with the "hard fight or no fight" DMing philosophy. I don't necessarily think every fight has to see one or more PCs on the ground making death saves, but every fight should give the feeling that such a result was certainly very likely. If the players make it through a battle without anyone dropping, they should be proud of themselves, and know that only their use of good tactics, teamwork, and some luck prevented that from happening.

Mostly, I just want to see at least one moment in each combat encounter when the PCs are thinking, "Oh man, we're so not going to win this fight."

Maybe that moment will be at the very beginning, as the forces arrayed against them appear very tough. "You round the corner to see six mindflayers and a dracolich. They look displeased. Roll initiative!" The players freak out, "There's no way we can take this encounter!" But then, after a hard-fought struggle, they manage to succeed, and feel all of the glory that is their due.

Or maybe it will be several rounds into an encounter that looked easy in the beginning . . . "Whatever, it's just a few hobgoblins guarding a chokepoint. It might take us several rounds to clear them out, but it's not like we're in any serious danger" . . . until the unseen lurker finally got into position to jump out and drop the wizard in one round, just as the enemy controller was at last able to use his AoE encounter power to blind most of the party. Suddenly the tables have dramatically turned, and the players are looking at each other with this grim nervousness, "Wow, we're actually going to die here..." Once again, their victory means something.

I love those kinds of scenes, and to me, there's little point in having long, drawn-out combat encounters with tons of dice rolls and math and bookkeeping, unless that sort of dramatic tension is evoked in the process.

 

[Rechan]

...or why oozes, swarms, spirits, and creatures of any size are all just as susceptable to being knocked prone, pushes, pulled, and slid as Joe Blow.

I have no problem imagining that an ooze is knocked prone. The ooze is cut in half/hit very hard, and splatters everywhere, requiring a move action to pull itself back together. An ooze can be moved by sticking his weapon into the bulk of it and hurling it in a general direction.

Same with a swarm; all the entities inside of it 'scatter', and need a few moments to pull themselves together.

Just use your imagination.

 

[phloog]

"Mostly, I just want to see at least one moment in each combat encounter when the PCs are thinking, "Oh man, we're so not going to win this fight."
"

Nah...I can agree with this statement until I realized you were saying 'each combat encounter'...then I give it a 'nope'...some encounters should be a cakewalk (knocking the two guards out to get into the castle, the bully that beat your character up in school who you meet again at 8th level, etc.) Some fights should leave the heroes feeling like they are truly badazzes. And some should be tough but manageable, with the CHANCE of a KO. And maybe the BBEG fights should end with a couple PCs down.

 

[firesnakearies]

"Mostly, I just want to see at least one moment in each combat encounter when the PCs are thinking, "Oh man, we're so not going to win this fight."
"

Nah...I can agree with this statement until I realized you were saying 'each combat encounter'...then I give it a 'nope'...some encounters should be a cakewalk (knocking the two guards out to get into the castle, the bully that beat your character up in school who you meet again at 8th level, etc.) Some fights should leave the heroes feeling like they are truly badazzes. And some should be tough but manageable, with the CHANCE of a KO. And maybe the BBEG fights should end with a couple PCs down.

Oh, I agree that plenty of situations that the characters encounter should be easily handled by them with little to no threat. I just don't think it's necessary to roll initiative for those encounters. If it's not going to be significantly dangerous, I'd prefer just handling the scene through roleplaying and narration. Essentially just granting the PCs auto-success with whatever they want to do, and giving it a cool description with interactive roleplaying opportunities, rather than dragging out the combat system just to go through the motions.

If initiative is only rolled when the situation is serious, every fight you do have becomes more exciting. And it doesn't bother me at all to handwave the PCs past numerous small encounters and allow them to be as heroic or badass as they want to, without making them roll dice for it.

That's just my preferred game style, I know that many other people don't like doing things that way. But it works for me.



$

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm coming to the conclusion that it was a mistake for WotC not to include some way of recharging encounter powers during a fight. IMO, that would do a lot to prevent grinding. (Maybe one standard action to recharge one encounter power?) Or else have some sort of power-up mechanic that keeps people from "going nova" with their encounter powers.

I've been sorta coming to the same conclusion myself. It is interesting to compare with SWSE where the various 'Force' powers are effectively encounter powers, but there are a number of ways of recovering them during an encounter.

I've not got to the stage of thinking through any real mechanisms for doing this yet, but I was wondering what it would be like to allow encounter powers to recharge on a 6 each round in the encounter (and allow daily powers one chance to recharge on a 6 at the start of each new encounter).

This is partly because the main feeling of grindiness seems to come when the encounter powers are used up, and the PCs just bash away at the at-wills. Monsters get to recharge their beefier powers, and I think it would add an interesting level of additional excitement to the combats if the PCs could too.

If I get around to trying it out, I'll let you know how it goes

Cheers