Changeover Poll

[Jack99]

Hyperbole? What hyperbole?

Honestly, no snark intended, but why is whatever you feel defines Dungeon and Dragon magazine any more valid than what someone else does? There's alot more missing than just it being made of paper, but in the end what you choose as "defining" characteristics of the magazines PDF's is no more or less valid (in an objective sense) than what characteristics anyone else decides define the mags for themselves.

Your analogy to water and ice was the hyperbole. And while I will not pretend to think that *I* define anything, I just find it very hard to accept that some people really place *being made out of dead trees* as a more defining characteristic than say the brand or the content. But since I am not allowed by the board rules to attribute other motives to my fellow posters, I can't expand on that. Let's just say that I am a sceptic. Especially since the people who claim that its not Dragon and Dungeon anymore seem to be the same people who constantly trash 4e.

Anyway, the OP admitted she was wrong, and it was her I was *talking* to.

Cheers

 

[BryonD]

Yes, obviously we've had countless 4e vs 3e threads over the last year. But that's not what I'm getting at. I'm asking what a successful percent changeover WOULD be, and how WotC could have gotten there.

Really, what I'm probably getting at is that anything short of 100% conversion would likely be looked at as "failure" by detractors (of course, if 100% converted, there'd be no detractors ), and highlighting the essential unwinnable situation WotC is in with regards to converting those strongly attached to in previous editions.

The person who loved 3.x and owned thousands in 3.x product and felt it did everything they needed? They weren't ever going to convert to a new edition. There are a lot of those people on EN World, certainly a higher percentage than the general gaming population.

I already answered how I believe they could have done better. As to how much better is good enough, I don't see much point to the question. The question certainly attempts to change the subject from my point that the possibility that loses may be as low as approximately one half is being portrayed as good news.

You can create a fiction of detractors calling 100% conversion a failure if you want and then hold that fiction up as a contrast to the reality of 50% conversion being called good news. It makes no difference to me. The merit of such a contrast seems rather clear on its face.

And when you speak about ENworld you clearly forget that you are now talking about THIS poll and not the good news poll I was referencing. It has already been claimed in this thread that one reason things are so much "better" over there is that those voters are not as vested in their collection. So within context, you final paragraph is completely in error.

 

[Jasperak]

In reply to the talk about Dragon magazine and Dungeon magazine.

The print magazines helped make me feel like I was part of a community. Not only were there fluff and crunch articles, there were advertisements, book reviews, comics, new book releases (not all from WOTC), and fiction. While the fluff and crunch articles were the bread and butter of the magazines, the other information added depth. I read "Order of the Stick" every time it comes out but I don't get the same feeling that I did when I read it in the magazine when it was part of something greater. For me there is no Gestalt feeling when I go to four different websites to get the same stuff that I got in one magazine. Knights of the Dinner Table is more useful to me than the Dragon/Dungeon PDFs for these reasons.

I confess that I like the tactile feel of magazines and comics in hands, but the PDFs do not offer everything that I got from the dead tree versions, like the WOW factor of seeing a cool advert for something new.

I'm sorry for not articulating my thoughts as clearly as I would like; I just needed to put this out there.

 

[garyh]

I already answered how I believe they could have done better. As to how much better is good enough, I don't see much point to the question. The question certainly attempts to change the subject from my point that the possibility that loses may be as low as approximately one half is being portrayed as good news.

You can create a fiction of detractors calling 100% conversion a failure if you want and then hold that fiction up as a contrast to the reality of 50% conversion being called good news. It makes no difference to me. The merit of such a contrast seems rather clear on its face.

And when you speak about ENworld you clearly forget that you are now talking about THIS poll and not the good news poll I was referencing. It has already been claimed in this thread that one reason things are so much "better" over there is that those voters are not as vested in their collection. So within context, you final paragraph is completely in error.

All the detractors saying these polls mean something bad for or about 4e naturally makes me curious as to what sort of changeover would be considered a success. If you aren't interested in that question, fair enough.

I don't recall saying anywhere that either poll meant anything in particular, other than arguing with Treebore a few dozen pages ago that internet polls can't be used in any scientific way. I certainly never said "Wow, look at how many converts there are at RPGNet! What great news!"

 

[Roman]

what sort of changeover would be considered a success

That varies by person, but I would say that for me personally the conversion rate would have to be at least 75% for me to even consider to start considering it a success (pun intended) in terms of creating a unified brand experience and establishing the new edition's dominance in the gaming field. A much higher conversion rate may well have been reached by the 4th edition or the real conversion rate may be even lower than this ENWorld poll indicates - we simply don't know - ENWorld numbers are not representative of the gaming population in general and we don't know in which direction they are biased. Also, the conversion rate required for commercial success of the edition may well be much lower than that required to achieve dominance in the gaming field, so that is another thing to consider. There is simply no hard and fast answer to your question just as we don't have any hard and fast data on what the real conversion rate actually is.

 

[13garth13]

Your analogy to water and ice was the hyperbole. And while I will not pretend to think that *I* define anything, I just find it very hard to accept that some people really place *being made out of dead trees* as a more defining characteristic than say the brand or the content. But since I am not allowed by the board rules to attribute other motives to my fellow posters, I can't expand on that. Let's just say that I am a sceptic. Especially since the people who claim that its not Dragon and Dungeon anymore seem to be the same people who constantly trash 4e.

Anyway, the OP admitted she was wrong, and it was her I was *talking* to.

Cheers

If I can't read it on a bus (don't own a laptop), or more importantly, in the WC (any other parents out there will probably confirm that the only moments of privacy you get from a toddler is whilst pondering on the porcelain....and sometimes not even then ) it's not a magazine....you can call it an e-zine and pretend that all of the tactile/sensory stimuli that are attendant with flipping through a real book or magazine, but brother, from where I'm sitting, if it's not printed on dead trees and mailed to my mailbox where I can gleefully anticipate its arrival, then it truly isn't a magazine.

From my perspective (and did I mention how much I LOATHE reading PDFs?!?!) Dragon and Dungeon are deader than the creatures of the Burgess Shale. Content is meaningless for me if I can't read it (and as I don't read PDF's with anything even remotely resembling pleasure.... .......) so thus, I concur with the above opinion that for all intents and purposes (for me, and I certainly don't intend to speak for everybody else on the planet) those great instituions of gaming are finis.

YMMV, IMNSHO, etc. etc.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Imaro]

Your analogy to water and ice was the hyperbole. And while I will not pretend to think that *I* define anything, I just find it very hard to accept that some people really place *being made out of dead trees* as a more defining characteristic than say the brand or the content. But since I am not allowed by the board rules to attribute other motives to my fellow posters, I can't expand on that. Let's just say that I am a sceptic. Especially since the people who claim that its not Dragon and Dungeon anymore seem to be the same people who constantly trash 4e.

Anyway, the OP admitted she was wrong, and it was her I was *talking* to.

Cheers

And yet for those who don't have a computer, credit card access or internet access... it probably was the most defining characteristic since they can no longer enjoy the brand and/or content...

 

[catsclaw227]

I do wonder how many collector-types have gotten off the train with 4E. I know some are still there (e.g., Catsclaw227), but I've also seen a few others that have stopped buying as well.

Yes, much to the chagrin of my wife, I am hopping along with 4e, though I am not purchasing the 3pp stuff as much as I used to.

With the economy the way it is (and a new home, wife and child), I am glad that there isn't as much 3PP support as 3.x yet. I couldn't afford it like I used to!

Even though there isn't "official" support for 3.x, there's still so much awesome stuff -- just read all the "What 3.5 3PP stuff should I buy" threads out there.

I am very curious what things will look like in about 18 months, when 4e has had 2 years of support, both from WOTC books, DDI, and 3PP.

And to comment about poll types, I don't believe that a public poll creates any more fire for flame wars than private polls. It appears to me that many posters are generous enough with their opinions one way or the other anyway.

While I am a 4e fan, I am not a 3.x hater by any stretch of the imagination. That edition brought so much fun that I would be doing all my past players and favorite d20/OGL publishers a disservice by claiming that it sucked.

Every edition of every RPG I have played had broken/weird/houseruled stuff in it.

 

[catsclaw227]

And yet for those who don't have a computer, credit card access or internet access... it probably was the most defining characteristic since they can no longer enjoy the brand and/or content...

I am not sure what it is like in other countries, but in the USA, just having a bank account gives you a debit card with a VISA or Mastercard compatibility. And yes, parents/family can still buy a DDI account for a child without a bank account.

 

[catsclaw227]

If I can't read it on a bus (don't own a laptop), or more importantly, in the WC (any other parents out there will probably confirm that the only moments of privacy you get from a toddler is whilst pondering on the porcelain....and sometimes not even then ) it's not a magazine....you can call it an e-zine and pretend that all of the tactile/sensory stimuli that are attendant with flipping through a real book or magazine, but brother, from where I'm sitting, if it's not printed on dead trees and mailed to my mailbox where I can gleefully anticipate its arrival, then it truly isn't a magazine.

Well, by definition, a magazine doesn't have to be printed to be a magazine. Just check any dictionary and you will see. But I understand that isn't your point. Yours is one of physical portability. But just because you don't like the medium, doesn't make it less of a magazine.

From my perspective (and did I mention how much I LOATHE reading PDFs?!?!) Dragon and Dungeon are deader than the creatures of the Burgess Shale. Content is meaningless for me if I can't read it (and as I don't read PDF's with anything even remotely resembling pleasure.... .......) so thus, I concur with the above opinion that for all intents and purposes (for me, and I certainly don't intend to speak for everybody else on the planet) those great instituions of gaming are finis.

And this is too bad, because it really has been great (if you like 4e). Dungeon and Dragon have been chock full of great articles and the adventures are good and getting better. There are some so-so adventures and some that don't float my boat, but that was the case with the print mag as well.

Have you tried printing it out? I like to print out just the articles I want to read and sit at my sofa and prep for my games (or sit on the car and just read). And when I DM my game, I use a laptop, so I have that option as well.