4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

In putting together the various Tables in the 4E Gods & Monsters pdf. I have come to realise that its a fairly large skew towards the lower end of the spectrum Epic tier and Legendary Tier (31-40).

So much so that I have been questioning the initial validity of any PC rules over Level 50. Not that I won't go 50+ eventually, but initially it doesn't really seem prudent.

I may also make a slight change to the format of Gods & Monsters and release the monsters in their tiers (more or less), rather than alphabetical. This way each third of the pdf will have a much broader spectrum of monsters.

Looking at the root of the problem, in any pyramidal system, the further you travel from infinity (the supreme being) the greater diversity you find. So the reverse of that also applies. The higher up the ladder you go, the less diversity there will be. As such, at a certain point there won't be very much with which to challenge the PCs. At the moment that point seems to be about Levels 51-60. At this juncture I think the monster races are going to 'dry up'.

I may have a competition in the near future to create some really powerful stuff - could be fun. But for now I think I'll concentrate on Epic/Legendary/Immortal Tiers. With monsters for the Immortal Tier sometimes being between 51-55 (in the same way some powerful monsters in 4E for the Epic Tier go up to Level 35).

Any thoughts on the matter?

 

[Rhuarc]

Sounds good to me mate. I think you can safely assume that the higher the levels get, the fewer characters will actually be existing; so less variety in challenges will be needed.

I also support your idea to release the monsters according to tier rather then alphabetically (even though I really want to see the powerful stuff as well ), because most of the players will start at the legendary tier and so the DMs will have the most use of monsters of levels 31-40.

Anyway, really anxious to see the first 4E release, keep it up

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rhuarc dude!

Sounds good to me mate. I think you can safely assume that the higher the levels get, the fewer characters will actually be existing; so less variety in challenges will be needed.

I think I had lulled myself into a false sense of 'security' (?) as regards whether or not I could flesh out enough tiers on the way to Supreme Being simply because the initial Gods & Monsters covers the Angels whose hierarchy really does go all the way up to the Supreme Being. Whereas most of the other races basically stop in and around First One.

I also support your idea to release the monsters according to tier rather then alphabetically (even though I really want to see the powerful stuff as well ), because most of the players will start at the legendary tier and so the DMs will have the most use of monsters of levels 31-40.

Well like I said, even released in tiers there will be some bleed into the lower and higher tiers (+/-5 Levels) in the same way the Monster Manual and various official books have added monster from 31-35th level.

So I am sorting the groups into their tiers primarily by leaders rather than grunts and minions.

For example There could be a race/group where the leader was Level 40, but some of his underlings could be Level 30 or slightly lower. Those entries will still be in the Legendary (31-40) Tier section.

So if the leader is 35 or lower, that group will be in the epic section. If the leader is 45 or less, in the Legendary section and 55 or less they'll be in the Immortal section.

Anyway, really anxious to see the first 4E release, keep it up

I'm really excited about it. So far its all looking good.

 

[Fieari]

Wait... levels 51-60 are the Old Ones, aren't they? The things that are more powerful than the standard greek/roman/etc pantheons? It seems to me that mythology is filled to overflowing with beings and monsters of that level, since myths are so fond of telling us about things that "even the gods fear". What's the trouble?

I mean, we can start with the cthulu mythos (rubbing the serial numbers off of course, but that's what "Eternal Darkness" for the gamecube did...), move on to the living embodiments of abstract concepts, give due diligence to the titans, and then go into antediluvian horrors (particularly the undead)...

We have fate spiders (long considered to be beyond even the gods), we have ancient beings that utilize "Old Magic", we have various "Gatekeepers" who protect the boundaries of life/death, time/space, etc. We have some particularly mean fey (Nox, you may be named as a greek goddess, but some sources I've seen have linked you to faerie, you fit well, and you are NASTY)...

And these are just things from myths. We can start from there and move on towards making up our own things, creating new mythology. I mean, the realm of outer space alone offers -so many- opportunities!

Maybe you're taking some of these myths and placing them lower on your scale? But as I see it, these are all things that Odin and Zeus were afraid of and respectful of.

EDIT - Don't think I'm saying your idea of focusing on levels 20-50 is a bad idea. It's not! Flesh things out from low to high. Don't worry about detailing these things yet. But I just can't see the upper levels as being that sparsely populated.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Wait... levels 51-60 are the Old Ones, aren't they? The things that are more powerful than the standard greek/roman/etc pantheons?

More or less, yes.

It seems to me that mythology is filled to overflowing with beings and monsters of that level, since myths are so fond of telling us about things that "even the gods fear". What's the trouble?

Well its very simple. Its a twofold process. Firstly, you can (and in fact its often prefered to for 'bosses') use monsters up to five levels higher than the PCs. Secondly, converting any deity from standard level to solo monster (for instance) is a 9 level reduction.

Therefore, in terms of monsters I can use even a Level 64 against a party of Level 50 PCs, simply by converting it to a Level 55 Solo Creature.

I mean, we can start with the cthulu mythos (rubbing the serial numbers off of course, but that's what "Eternal Darkness" for the gamecube did...), move on to the living embodiments of abstract concepts, give due diligence to the titans, and then go into antediluvian horrors (particularly the undead)...

Already covered...in fact the second Gods & Monsters is of course the Far Realm Place.

We have fate spiders (long considered to be beyond even the gods), we have ancient beings that utilize "Old Magic", we have various "Gatekeepers" who protect the boundaries of life/death, time/space, etc.

I might be able to squeeze a few more monsters out of that (thanks), but its still difficult to see any of them higher than the Immortal Tier even if they are individually more powerful than 'immortals'.

We have some particularly mean fey (Nox, you may be named as a greek goddess, but some sources I've seen have linked you to faerie, you fit well, and you are NASTY)...

I believe Nyx was one of my original listed (Evil) Old Ones (in Ascension), you might see her in Gods & Monsters: Astral Plane - Immortal Tier.

And these are just things from myths. We can start from there and move on towards making up our own things, creating new mythology. I mean, the realm of outer space alone offers -so many- opportunities!

If you saw my master list at the moment it would frighten you. Think in terms of about 3 full Monster Manuals worth of monsters.

I have broken those down into six Gods & Monsters pdfs (Astral Plane, Far Realm/Place, Elemental Chaos, Time, Fate/Nature/Feywild and Entropy/Shadowfell) and further broken those down into Epic, Legendary and Immortal Tiers. Thats 18 pdfs of approximately 48 pages each!

...and on average I'll come up with a new monster every day. Came up with two new golems last night and each of them is (at least) six new statblocks. Both of them are so simple, but brilliantly obvious I wonder how I didn't think of them before.

Maybe you're taking some of these myths and placing them lower on your scale? But as I see it, these are all things that Odin and Zeus were afraid of and respectful of.

Those guys are only around about Level 40 solo opponents.

EDIT - Don't think I'm saying your idea of focusing on levels 20-50 is a bad idea. It's not! Flesh things out from low to high. Don't worry about detailing these things yet. But I just can't see the upper levels as being that sparsely populated.

Its when you realise that monsters for PCs up to Level 50 are going to be a potential Level 64 that it dawns on you your options beyond that are limited...and I'm not saying I don't have anything for a 51-60 (PC) Tier, far from it, I have about 15-20 Monsters, but I think 4E really eats up more monsters than previous editions and that 15-20 isn't enough to make a sustainable campaign from. I estimate you need a bare minimum 50+ for each Tier to make it worthwhile.

 

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK mate,

even though it really sends chills down my spine to hear about that many monsters coming in, I have a little concern/request. As you know, many of us are patiently waiting for the first real release of you in quite some months and maybe you could cut the time thinking of/developing new monsters for the future pdfs and focus for the time being more on the first one to "hit the internet".
I guess you do that already, just a small reminder which hope isn't bothering you.

Anyway, I'm ready to give you my money whenever you are ready to

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK mate,

Howdy Rhuarc mate!

even though it really sends chills down my spine to hear about that many monsters coming in, I have a little concern/request. As you know, many of us are patiently waiting for the first real release of you in quite some months and maybe you could cut the time thinking of/developing new monsters for the future pdfs and focus for the time being more on the first one to "hit the internet". I guess you do that already, just a small reminder which hope isn't bothering you.

Anyway, I'm ready to give you my money whenever you are ready to

I appreciate both the kind words and the kick up the backside.

Godsend at the moment isn't in anything like a finished state, although thats a weird pdf. 3.5 is just looking like an alien language to me at the moment.

The first Gods & Monsters (4E) pdf. I could probably have finished (writing) in about a week - assuming of course that I wasn't back to work (tonight is the first of 3 consecutive nights this week).

Regardless though I'll stop waxing lyrical about what I don't have ready yet and get on with the business of finishing a darn pdf.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Alzrius!

(trying to post over the past few nights and ENWorld kept kicking me out after about 15 minutes).

I know you have looked at the revised GSL, just curious about your thoughts?

 

[Fieari]

Hey, U_K, just wondering-- have you checked out the PHB2 yet? It's got 6 new epic destinies, 15 new general epic feats, and of course new epic powers for all the new classes.

In particular, I think a couple of the new epic destinies MIGHT be able to compete with Demigod, which was -by far- the most popular (and most powerful) of the PHB1 epic destinies. Demigod's 30th level power is particularly crazy, enabling all kinds of broken power combos.

On the other hand, Fatesinger's 24th and 26th level power breaks the economy of actions, being another 3.0e Haste (for 1 turn).

Other destinies are pretty good too, if not quite as broken. Glorious Spirit prevents enemies with a movement of 6 or less from running away, ever. Harbinger of Doom can force all enemies within 3 squares to grant combat advantage to your party (lvl 26). Revered One is our "Cleric++" destiny, with an added bonus of Favored Enemy: Deity. Primal Avatar can self ressurect as long as he has two healing surges available.

Lorekeeper seems pretty weak to me, although it seems to be more of a utility destiny, based around rituals. I dunno how good it'll be.

But the cool thing is that almost all of their "Immortality" sections are basically ascension, unlike the PHB1 destinies. One has you literally becoming part of The Song of Heroes, one brings about Armageddon/Ragnarok/whatever (and then vanishing until the next world needs to end), and three have you ascending to the "Spirit World". Again, the Lorekeeper disappoints, being another librarian ending (like the archmage).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Hey, U_K, just wondering-- have you checked out the PHB2 yet?

No such luck. I'll probably wait until DMG 2 and MM2 are out then make the road trip to get all the books at once.

It's got 6 new epic destinies, 15 new general epic feats, and of course new epic powers for all the new classes.

Cool.

I have pencilled down some ideas for what Portfolios I want in my 4E Immortals Handbook and Immortals Handbook II. With 14 Portfolios in each book. Eight of which will sort of be extensions of the PHB classes.

I have been starting to wonder if some portfolios should only have single roles (striker, controller, leader, defender) and others multiple roles.

For instance I might just make the War portfolio 100% defender, whereas the Fire portfolio might better suit multiple roles.

In particular, I think a couple of the new epic destinies MIGHT be able to compete with Demigod, which was -by far- the most popular (and most powerful) of the PHB1 epic destinies. Demigod's 30th level power is particularly crazy, enabling all kinds of broken power combos.

True.

On the other hand, Fatesinger's 24th and 26th level power breaks the economy of actions, being another 3.0e Haste (for 1 turn).

The beauty of 4E is that you can break the rules and be balanced (as contradictory as that sounds) by limiting the break to one round and stuff like that.

Other destinies are pretty good too, if not quite as broken. Glorious Spirit prevents enemies with a movement of 6 or less from running away, ever. Harbinger of Doom can force all enemies within 3 squares to grant combat advantage to your party (lvl 26). Revered One is our "Cleric++" destiny, with an added bonus of Favored Enemy: Deity. Primal Avatar can self ressurect as long as he has two healing surges available.

Lorekeeper seems pretty weak to me, although it seems to be more of a utility destiny, based around rituals. I dunno how good it'll be.

Naturally I'll have to get myself familiar with them so I can be assured my Legendary and Immortal Tier powers trump them.

But the cool thing is that almost all of their "Immortality" sections are basically ascension, unlike the PHB1 destinies. One has you literally becoming part of The Song of Heroes, one brings about Armageddon/Ragnarok/whatever (and then vanishing until the next world needs to end), and three have you ascending to the "Spirit World". Again, the Lorekeeper disappoints, being another librarian ending (like the archmage).

I thnk these alternate ascension methods would probably create Resonance areas.