Does 4th edition hinder roleplaying?

[Byronic]

I disagree with the blog but I would like to say, while 4th edition doesn't hinder roleplaying much, it doesn't aid it much either. Although these "backgrounds" mentioned in the PHB 2 are a nice step in the right direction.

Still, if you want a game that truly supports roleplaying there's always stuff like White Wolf games. I'm reminded of that time when White Wolf offered to "graduate your game" by exchanging your version of the 3.5 players handbook for an Exalted game. Hilarious.

 

[avin]

Isn't the idea that a daily or encounter power is something exceptional or taxing or whatever?

I don't know... in real world I can't think any martial maneuver so hard that it can't be used again, at least in the same day.

On my 4E games I'm just assuming this is High Fantasy and carrying on...

 

[Phaezen]

D&D itself is too gamist (what a weird thing to say) compared to some other systems, such as GURPS. Heck, there was level limitations for races some time ago.

That said I'm inclined to agree that, for a martial character, makes zero sense to use a maneuver and "forget it" until next combat or next day and most people have some work explaining Healing Surges outside mechanics... I think that even the most zealous 4E defenders (and chill out 4E defenders such as me ) will agree that it's not that good for character immersion.

Just copy/pasting myself from an earlier thread on the subject.

I see it more of a narative tool than a "video game power". It also works in line with my experience of fighting (JKA Kumite and Goju Ryu Iri Kumi). Some techniques are more difficult to complete and require the right distance, body positioning, balance and openings in your opponents defense to execute.

So for example, basic jabs, snap kicks and mawashigeri (roundhouse kicks) to the body would be my at will attacks, very little effect but they are easy to execute and are used to position your opponent for your more effective techniques.

For encounter techniques, more difficult you need the right balance and have to work openings in your opponents defence, you will most likely only be able to pull these off once or twice in a three minute bout. You are looking at head high mawashigeri's, reverse mawashi to the body, using strong defenses to turn your opponent and open his back, as well as small sweeps to put him off balance so you can land other techniques easier.

For Dailies, requiring perfect balance, positioning as well as working your opponent into a position where his balance and defences are not in place to counter, full sweeps and throws, are the big ones here. Unless you are very skilled you will most likely be able to execute these once a tournament (usually 4 or 5 fights).

Similarly, for martial exploits you can draw the same conclusions, your encounter powers require a certain set of circumstances that you can manoeuvre into once in a fight. Dailies, require even more skill to set up and you can usually manage to get the right circumstances once every 4 or 5 encounters.

Phaezen

 

[ExploderWizard]

To quote the character Garland Green fron Con-Air " He's a font of misplaced rage".

The guy has a beef with mechanical limitations of a game which are perfectly valid (they are his opinion after all) then mistakenly tries to connect these mechanical limitations to a hinderance on roleplaying.

His nerd rage would have been better spent on disappointment with the build options offered with respect to pure mechanical variety instead of a lame attempt to blame a system for something that it doesn't have the power to do-hinder roleplaying.

 

[BryonD]

Any four year old knows how to roleplay and they don't need rules.
Game systems do not hinder roleplaying.

 

[Bacons]

I don't know... in real world I can't think any martial maneuver so hard that it can't be used again, at least in the same day.

On my 4E games I'm just assuming this is High Fantasy and carrying on...

I know little to nothing about real-world martial manoeuvres, but there are lots of things I can physically do, but can't physically do over and over again. Everybody has limits, and whether the exact goalposts are entirely realistic, I think it's well within the reach of a player to roleplay that the limits they've got mechanically are the limits their character has in roleplaying terms. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you are going to collapse if you push yourself to "become a blur of motion" every round, for instance, so you can only do it once a battle, and a lot of the powers don't even require this assumption because the reason they don't work every round has more to do with tactics and technique.

The mechanic is definitely more tenuous in the daily powers than the encounter ones, and I'm not trying to say the powers are a totally awesome representation of real-life battle, but I don't think they hurt immersion (if you're willing to accept the conceit that they are the parameters of what your character can do without pushing themselves to collapse), and I definitely don't think they discourage roleplaying. I find more opportunity for roleplaying in the special powers than in stabbing a dude every round.

 

[avin]

*disclaimer*: I'm not bashing any edition or system here, just explaining how it works on my head... I will play any edition or system

Nice explaing Phaezen... but I still think we have to supress some things here to work. You explain that, for some maneuvers, there should be an optimal position, etc... but in 4E combat there's no such a thing.

It's up to player to choose when use a Daily. He doesn't need to wait for an optimal situation for use it. Why not using again when the opponent is tired, almost dead, with defenses low?

We are here trying to explain why some maneuver can be used once a day.

Now let's compared it to GURPS Martial Arts maneuvers which can be used mostly at will... GURPS implementation doesn't sound a bit more immersive?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hinder what now?

Heck no. 4e is not the most character-immersive system out there, but D&D hasn't been that...er...ever. D&D has largely towed the "you don't need rules for roleplaying!" idea, that it's all player ability and DM Fiat.

I think that D&D could do more to support roleplaying, yes. I'm disappointed that 4e took a step back from some of the non-combat options in 3e, yes. I don't like "player ability vs. DM Fiat" resolution mechanisms, absolutely.

But just because it can be a lot better doesn't mean that what it is now is actively HOSTILE to role-playing. It's not so much. Even combat is still playing your role, so the fact that 4e makes combat the best way to solve every problem (kind of like 3e mostly did before) isn't hindering any roleplaying.

You can roleplay just fine in 4e. I think people are doing it this weekend, in fact. The blog needs to focus its argument against the real problems in the edition, and not just scream and swat at planes like King Kong. There are issues with 4e, but "I can't play a role" isn't one of them. Perhaps "I'm not encouraged to have a personality" is one of them.

 

[Phaezen]

*disclaimer*: I'm not bashing any edition or system here, just explaining how it works on my head... I will play any edition or system

Nice explaing Phaezen... but I still think we have to supress some things here to work. You explain that, for some maneuvers, there should be an optimal position, etc... but in 4E combat there's no such a thing.

It's up to player to choose when use a Daily. He doesn't need to wait for an optimal situation for use it. Why not using again when the opponent is tired, almost dead, with defenses low?

We are here trying to explain why some maneuver can be used once a day.

Now let's compared it to GURPS Martial Arts maneuvers which can be used mostly at will... GURPS implementation doesn't sound a bit more immersive?

Well the optimal positioning would come from the players narative really.

As a side note, after giving it some extra thought, I have no issue with paragon/epic martial powers being somewhat supernatural in feeling. By those levels you are operating at a level well above most people and having a powerful martial character being able to use his training, experience and sheer awesome tap into some mystical martial force to perform these supernatural attacks is about as taxing on my immersion as a wizard or shaman using his training to control supernatural forces.

Phaezen

 

[Solodan]

I wouldn't use a misdirected rant to evaluate 4E roleplaying.

In my mind 4E is as good as any other system for roleplaying, some ways better, some ways worse. It is better in the sense that you don't have to be the "face" guy to participate anymore. The 6 charisma fighter type with -2 diplomacy no longer is autofailure once he opens his trap. Sure, he'll not be as good as your bard (and odds are the DM may have designed the challenge around the bard) but I've found that no social skill points in d20 systems makes it hard to even roleplay with farmers and commoners, even as a tough level 10+ legendary hero.

The bad part - I've noticed 4E attracts some players who are not good roleplayers because of the excellent(by gamy standards) combat system, which requires no roleplaying. So, you have a table with a few good roleplayers and a few good board gamers, so of course the roleplay isn't going to be as good as something with only the roleplaying carrot to attract your players.