What do you do without balance?

For me balance isn't something I'm trying to "achieve" in my game. It's a tool I use in running my game; an informational tool, that as the DM I can use in a variety of ways. Everything from looking at odds, to understanding the relative power level of things and how they fit into my game world.

It is just as easy to determine odds in any system with which the DM is competent as long as they have a descent mathematics background.


If one class ends up being out of balance it throws things off. It's like using a digital scientific scale but forgetting to calibrate to 0. It makes that tool virtually useless to me. The numbers become pretty much meaningless.

I can't agree with this because if the DM knows the abilities of the class then calibrations can be made. It is like taring the measuring boat to stick with the scale example.

I'm not the type that likes to throw only encounters that are designed to be in the range of my players at them. I don't care if the encounter is vastly overpowered, or underpowered. I DO, however, like to have an idea about where it stands in relationship to my players. It helps me convey information about the situation to my players.

I am with you 100% there. I don't always make encounters to players level range because sometimes it is fun to just let your party have fun tearing through encounters, and sometimes its fun making encounters you really don't want them to pass, but if they do it could accelerate their goal.

You do not need the character concept balance which is central to 4e to accomplish this. If you know how the player's classes work, you can get just as good a feel for where the party is on scale with encounters, whether you are using 4e or 1st edition lack of balance (which for fighter vs caster was corrected by spell casting interuption)

That's why I feel balance is important, and why I want all the players working with gear that has the same power scale. I don't mind if in the game someone's gear ends up being better then someone elses, but I want that to be because of an in-game effect, and not an artifact of the rules not working properly.

I do not think that not having balance between classes means the rules do not work properly. Ok let me state it doesn't matter for a cooperative RPG. 3rd edition worked fine even with the wizard having the edge.

Balance is not the be all and end all. In fact it sometimes does not make sense. Age of Empires, Nope I meant Empire Earth makes no sense a mech can get taken down by a trebuchet. In Star Wars, by and large the Jedi of equal level to any other class should be the more powerful. it is the way the world works. D&D is not WOW, it was not necessary to strike the balance that MMO's achieve. Especially with a PvP component. 3rd edition sold just fine without perfect balance. Over any other RPG.
 
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It's not nonsense, because once the player makes that choice, that's it, he has no choice but to use equipment that is sub par. If someone chooses to be the pitcher, there's no reason he should get a wooden bat, when the third basemen gets a metal one.


Sorry, but I am not sure I am following you.

Are you arguing that, in 3e, choosing a fighter is automatically choosing subpar equipment?

Or are you arguing that, in 3e, choosing a fighter may also lead to using subpar equipment?

In the first case, it is similar to playing a game in which, per the rules, the pitcher uses a wooden bat when hitting, while everyone else uses a metal one. In which case, using the wooden bat is part of the choice of being a pitcher......rather like using a sword (or other weapon) instead of spells is part of the choice of being a fighter.

In the second case, choosing a fighter would not automatically lead to using subpar equipment, making your point moot.

@ Voadam:

Don't have the page number on me here at work.


RC
 

That's probably a better example I suppose. Jedi should be pretty powerful in a Star Wars game, but I don't remember too many comments about Star Wars being so broken that the Jedi always stole the spotlight.

That seems to have been one of the principle critiques of both d6 Star Wars and both OCR and RCR d20 Star Wars. Every version of the Star Wars RPG ever released has made Jedi relatively less powerful than the previous one; it's only with Saga that non-Jedi heroes are pretty much balanced with Jedi heroes.
 

Bouncing in 5 pages late here but what the heck.

Glib answer: I'll play Rifts! So what do I care for balance? ;p

Reasoned answer: Balance is an ill defined term.

In MMORPGs Balance usually means "Does class x have a reasonable chance of beating any other class in PVP, if played well." Increasingly this seems to be the definition used in tabletop as well, but I think it's a false definition there.

I think in a tabletop game a better definition of balance is "Does this character get as much face/spotlight time as the rest of the characters." That may seem off but in pretty much every discussion on balance I've seen over the years you get a lot of comments along the lines of "Well I don't care if I do the most damage as long as I get my chance to shine."

Unfortunately with it's fiercely protected niches D&D is (by accidental design) one of the worst games possible as far as this definition of balance goes. In a game of urban cat and mouse a rogue is going to hog the spotlight. In a trapless dungeon of undead he's going to wonder why he bothered to show up at all. If the fighter is doing his job well, there is less for the cleric to do, etc. 4e, to it's credit, does seem like an improvement over earlier edition from this perspective.
 

It is just as easy to determine odds in any system with which the DM is competent as long as they have a descent mathematics background.




I can't agree with this because if the DM knows the abilities of the class then calibrations can be made. It is like taring the measuring boat to stick with the scale example.

Unless you mean by decent math background that one has discovered the Unified Theory, I respectfully disagree.

Certainly, in an closed environment objective measurements can be made. You can calculate realistic odds as to whether a given fighter will survive a fight, assuming you know his statistics. This is because he can be assumed to behave in a predictable manner. While he could sunder the BBEG's sword and thereby swing the battle in an unexpected direction, the fact that he doesn't have Improved Sunder suggests that he either won't attempt a sunder or will fail if he does attempt it.

A spontaneous caster is a bit more trouble, but still reasonably predictable. He might have a significant number of options, but they are still limited.

Casters who memorize are where the real trouble lies. They often have a large permutation of possible spells, and can alter them from day to day.

Certainly, they might have a standard list that they usually memorize, so some calculations can certainly be made, but these can prove notoriously unreliable.
Oops, Eduardo the Mage got the mistaken impression that today's adventure would be mostly investigation, so he neglected memorizing his usual complement of combat spells, bringing his overall effectiveness way below what you anticipated.
What!? Priestess Sara has never prayed for Holy Word, but today she apparently had a "feeling" and the BBEG might find his ambush turned against him before he knows what has hit him (guess her deity really is looking out for her).

As a player I've thrown DMs these curve balls and received my fair share of "karma" when I've DM'd. A single spell change from a typical spell list can be enough to throw off the expected difficulty of an encounter. Of course, that only applies to casters who have typical spell lists, and I've known a few who changed their list almost daily.

Unless you have the ability to prognosticate the future and know when planning a game what spells your wizard and cleric players will memorize each day, it can be impossible to make more than an educated guess with respect to these characters.
 
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To the OP question: when I'm DMing I do anything at my reach to keep things balanced. Seeing people bored or shaded by somebody else's power is frustrating to me.

That's why I'm ver fond of low point basic GURPS and D&D4E.

When I'm a player I don't care about balance as much as I care about being overpower: I just want to create a useful character that satisfies my needs.
 

Bouncing in 5 pages late here but what the heck.

Glib answer: I'll play Rifts! So what do I care for balance? ;p

While RIFTS cares nothing for balance there are enough OCCs and RCCs of of "equal" power level that balance between characters does not have to be an issue.

Reasoned answer: Balance is an ill defined term.

In MMORPGs Balance usually means "Does class x have a reasonable chance of beating any other class in PVP, if played well." Increasingly this seems to be the definition used in tabletop as well, but I think it's a false definition there.

Agreed. The difference being: most of the time a tabletop game is cooperative.

I think in a tabletop game a better definition of balance is "Does this character get as much face/spotlight time as the rest of the characters." That may seem off but in pretty much every discussion on balance I've seen over the years you get a lot of comments along the lines of "Well I don't care if I do the most damage as long as I get my chance to shine."

I prefer the definition of "is the character useful a meaningful percentage of the time." I think it defines things a bit better.

Unfortunately with it's fiercely protected niches D&D is (by accidental design) one of the worst games possible as far as this definition of balance goes. In a game of urban cat and mouse a rogue is going to hog the spotlight. In a trapless dungeon of undead he's going to wonder why he bothered to show up at all. If the fighter is doing his job well, there is less for the cleric to do, etc. 4e, to it's credit, does seem like an improvement over earlier edition from this perspective.

Niche protection is a form of balance - not always a good one. That said the problem in earlier additions was that some classes were good at their niche and nothing else. While others were good at their niche and pretty good at other niches too.
 

I guess I'll jump back in here with my own answer to the question, or rather state my opinion on the matter:

If I'm playing a game based around the idea of playing a concept then I expect the game to let me play that concept (even if it takes some time to get there). Part of that concept is how effective I am compared to other characters. If that concept in unachievable then I expect the system to make that information clear (and I also expect this clarity to tell me at each stage of my character growth).

If those conditions cannot be met then I see no reason to bother with using that system as I can tell stories just fine without it. But if I can't trust a game not to mislead me then it's useless.
 

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Originally Posted by The Ghost
There are also many of us who like "balance over time." Meaning, it is alright for a fighter to be more powerful than a wizard at level one and a wizard to be more powerful at level twenty, etc.

The problem with this is it means D&D can only be played as a campaign from level 1 to X (X being the point at which the wizard has been overpowered for as long as the fighter was). Any deviation and the game breaks. That makes it one helluva limited game.

Only with a limited definition of "campaign" -- which is indeed common today and, I think, a significant factor in changes to the game.
 

I've had very little time lately, SilverCat, because of work, so I admit up front I didn't have the opportunity to read the whole thread. So forgive me if I've reiterated other points already spoken. To me, though, it's to hell with balance. Especially in heroic fantasy.

But I really also have to admit I never got the idea of creating balanced characters, and to me that isn't what I think of as balanced. Then again balanced characters bore me silly, the very idea of it does. The concept that all character classes or professions must be balconied seems to me to skew the very idea of "Heroic Dispersal." That is, that within an heroic fantasy, game or literary work, etc, everyone does the same basic thing or are all basically equally effective in most given situations, only the techniques of, or applications of, effectiveness varying.

You never see that in either heroic fantasy literature or in myth. People's talents, capabilities, interests, and abilities are "dispersed" and for good reason, each then becomes a sort of archetype of a peculiar personality aspect of heroism. A combatant is a combatant because he is aggressive, trained for war and combat, and is fearless, in a given way, such as during occasions of open hostility. A Wizard is not a combatant, he magically reshapes reality and thereby displays and produces an entirely different method of "facing the world," as well as an entirely different facade of what it means to be heroic. Cunning, stealth, guile, open-heartedness and honesty, honor, courage, faith, all have their own particular expression and way of "measuring the man."

Inherent in that same measure are the various weaknesses and liabilities that accompany the strengths and advantages of that particular individual. And classes, or professions (what they truly are) are really just masks or "character aspects" of the nature of the individual. Attempts therefore to measure out balance to all individuals is to by very definition lessen the import of individualism which is the true message behind heroic fantasy in the first place. By making everyone even it's a little like making everyone communist, yeah, everybody has assured gruel or wormy corn-meal, but is that the meat of heroism?

But when natural, human aspects of individual variance are in play then everyone has a moment at which they can and should be heroic. It's just it won't be in the same circumstances. Some men thrive as leaders, others as powers behind the throne, some as clever manipulators, some as strategists, some as logicians and magicians. But the more everyone becomes alike the less likely they are to be themselves, and the less likely anyone is to be himself, the less likely he is to be heroic peculiar to the demands and potentials of his own nature. At best when everyone is balanced you have a plenum of the pre-calculated class-man, but a dearth of the extraordinary individual. I think therefore that a lot of the impetus to balance is a modern democratic one (by that I mean the political philosophy) of holding all individuals equal. But heroism is not about holding all individuals equal, it is about holding all individuals equally capable of different expressions of their individual nature, including acknowledging their decided weaknesses and inabilities as part of the very core of their heroic nature. To be heroic you have weaknesses to overcome in your own self, not just monsters to overcome in the wider world. You can't overcome your own weaknesses by setting out with the goal of "balancing yourself" against all others. Your goal as a hero is not to balance-out your assets and liabilities, it is to overcome your faults and expound upon your virtues.

But when I think of balance my first thought is, as the game has recently developed, not inter-class equilibrium, but party- to-monster/challenge equilibrium, which I find equivalent to the doctrine of, not train as you fight, but train as you might without getting hurt.

Every encounter with the dangerous is by very nature a decided "risk." When you set out to balance your fights all you end up with is a series of basically non-lethal training simulations in which you're not even really bothering to fire live ammunition. Your real mettle is never tested, it is coaxed and massaged as if in a spa, or a virtual reality simulation, not bent and hammered on as in a real fight.

(Yes, I know, someone is saying right now, none of this is real anyway. No, it isn't, but then again that is a specious point, because it is not the physical test that is the challenge of how a man reacts to a risk in an imaginary environment, it is the mental test of how he reacts. If every criticism is dismissible simply by saying that nothing is really real anyway, then I can similarly dismiss the whole conversation of this thread, any arguments engendered, no matter how valid, any point, or any other aspect of debate. As a matter of fact I can dismiss debate itself as unreal, unless one is debating only facts, and real facts don't need "debating," merely exposure and interpretation. For instance the very idea of game balance or imbalance in an imaginary scenario concerning an unreal/fantasy game - the postulate itself regarding such discussions, the entire set of coordinates regarding this matter from start to finish is devoid of true reality - other than that set of realities imposed by the participants, by that measure. Such a retort however still does not address the assumed reality of that imposed by the participants without which this conversation would be meaningless anyways, and therefore this entire thought-process exercise vapid and substanceless. Words themselves are not real when it comes to that. Words are not things. Not like copperheads and oak trees. But they nevertheless represent real things, and they can thus be examined for meaning and purpose, as can the ideas they transmit and encapsulate.)

But no fight is balanced. It is balanced only to the extent that one party can balance their strengths, skills, capabilities, and objectives against the corresponding factors employed by the enemy or competitor. Balance therefore is never "written into" any fight worth fighting, it is created during the course of the conflict, or it is exceeded by that party determined to be the superior at the conclusion of hostilities. A balanced encounter would by very definition go on until such time as a state of imbalance is reached, or is forced. Only then can it really be decided, no matter the apparent advantages or disadvantages of the various parties before the engagement erupts. Therefore "balance" should never be the intentional point of any conflict, or the conflict proceeds as a disastrous drain of resources and manpower on both sides - indefinitely. Imbalance should always be the ultimate aim of every conflict. The imbalance of the victor over the loser and it is the job of the participants to decide that state of imbalance through their own clever exploitation of their inherent capabilities. It is not the job of the referee to assure conflict balance, it is the job of the participants to assure that a state of imbalance is exploited in order to win against the enemy.

Therefore I favor this kind of balance even less than that of class-equilibrium. (By the way, in nature, when most things reach a state of fixed and especially artificial equilibrium one of two things happen, stasis - in which no real progress is made, or constant friction which means things will dissolve or wear down by their own force eventually anyway, thereby killing equilibrium. Something to think about especially concerning things involving human effort and potential, like heroism, real or fantastic.)

Therefore I much prefer that state of dis-equilibrium, and that state of natural and progressive imbalance, which tests players and characters to exceed their current and previous limitations.

Well, I gotta go.
 

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