Unarmed strike and natural weapons?

[Theroc]

I've been wondering about this for a bit, as I've always been interested in playing a lycanthropic character, how do unarmed feats correlate with natural weapons if at all?

Do things that affect unarmed bonuses affect natural weapons?

If not, what sorts of things do apply to natural weapons, and is it possible to make a character who is heavily focused on their alternate forms for combat, rather than relying on manufactured weapons and armor?

 

[freyar]

Unfortunately, natural weapons don't count as having the Improved Unarmed Strike (even though logically maybe they should). But maybe you could negotiate with your DM if you want to play a lycanthrope. Or look for other good unarmed kind of feats that don't require IUS. There might be some good monster feats outside the core, actually.

 

[wizarddog]

Feats that require Improved unarmed strike require the feat. However, unarmed strike does count as a natural weapon for feats that require that. The deal is that an improved unarmed strike is a trained ability while natural weapons are really, natural weapons. As a lycanthropy, you can take improved natural weapon feats (as well with the improved but it won't stack your bare fist AND Claw.)

 

[Theroc]

Improved natural weapon feats? I didn't see any of those in the SRD. DId I miss them? Are they in the other supplementary materials in my signature?

A lycanthrope is one example of what I was thinking of... I wanted to create a character whose primary combat method was natural weapons, but I can't tell if it's possible to make an effective character that way or not.

 

[Herzog]

I think he refers to Improved Natural Attack.

It's in the SRD under Monster Feats.

You may need DM fiat to use monster feats, although the most important reason they are seperate from the 'normal' feats is that 'normal' characters don't have access to them.

Since you are a lycanthrope, you have natural attacks. Since you have natural attacks, you should be able to improve them using this feat.

 

[Runestar]

Unfortunately, natural weapons don't count as having the Improved Unarmed Strike (even though logically maybe they should). But maybe you could negotiate with your DM if you want to play a lycanthrope. Or look for other good unarmed kind of feats that don't require IUS. There might be some good monster feats outside the core, actually.

I am guessing the key reason for natural weapons and unarmed strikes being tracked separately is because unarmed strikes can be made with any part of your body, so it makes little sense for INA: claw to benefit your kicks.

As natural weapons never get iterative attacks, I think the key way of playing a successful PC who uses natural attacks effectively is to either go totemist or warblade (since their base damage account for only a small part of the total damage they can deal). Otherwise, you may find yourself falling behind the damage curve very quickly.

 

[freyar]

I am guessing the key reason for natural weapons and unarmed strikes being tracked separately is because unarmed strikes can be made with any part of your body, so it makes little sense for INA: claw to benefit your kicks.

As natural weapons never get iterative attacks, I think the key way of playing a successful PC who uses natural attacks effectively is to either go totemist or warblade (since their base damage account for only a small part of the total damage they can deal). Otherwise, you may find yourself falling behind the damage curve very quickly.

A fair point. When I said I think it would make sense for a natural attack to qualify you for the IUS feat chain, I meant that I feel like natural attacks would be reasonable substitute prereqs for Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, and Snatch Arrows. It's been an annoyance a couple of times in monster design.

 

[Theroc]

I am guessing the key reason for natural weapons and unarmed strikes being tracked separately is because unarmed strikes can be made with any part of your body, so it makes little sense for INA: claw to benefit your kicks.

As natural weapons never get iterative attacks, I think the key way of playing a successful PC who uses natural attacks effectively is to either go totemist or warblade (since their base damage account for only a small part of the total damage they can deal). Otherwise, you may find yourself falling behind the damage curve very quickly.

I don't recall seeing either of those in the materials I can access, though the Totemist is a class I wish I could play (Incarnum looks very interesting).

Is that play idea not viable if I don't have access to those classes? The materials I am capable of accessing are in my signature, in the event you too can access those/know something from them that would help.

I'd heard about the iterative attacks, and with that in mind I was wondering if it was even possible to make a viable build centered around animal/hybrid type forms of any shapeshifter capable of changing their shape.

Levels in Warshaper would no doubt help with this, as they are focused around the changing of shape.

 

[milo]

You might want to take one level of monk. A monk's unarmed strike can be considered manufactured or man made, you might be able to work with that and get your natural attacks considered to be manufactured and get second attacks with them.
If not multiattack is a must. You only get a -2 on your secondary attack. Typically 2 claws and a bite as the secondary. You might only get 3 attacks a round, but they are all at a good bonus.

 

[dingle]

Improved natural attack is also a useful feat to increase the damage. It increases the natural weapon damage by one size catagory.