Expertise justification?

[GMforPowergamers]

red dragon:
HP 750; Bloodied 375; see also bloodied breath
AC 33; Fortitude 33, Reflex 30, Will 29

Avrage 11th PC party... each has a +3 weap/imp

Rogue (18 att stat to start) useing a dagger +17 Vs reflex/AC (needs 13/16)
Fighter (18 att stat to start) useing Longsword +17 Vs AC (needs 16)
Wizard (20 att stat to start) useing Orb +14 Vs Will (Needs 15)
Cleric (16 att stat to start) Useing Mace +14 Vs AC/HS +11 Vs Ref (need 19/19)
Ranger (18 att stat to start) using Longbow +16 Vs AC (needs 17 2+ rolls)

looks like a hard fight...if they work togather and get CA most rounds the rogue is almost at 50/50, but he is the most accurate in the group. If the Cleric has a good buff like Blass now would be a good time to use it, sevral memebers could have autodamage attacks. And if they get real lucky they will miss with there daily not there encounters (sounds backwards, but dailys have miss and effect, encounters missed are often lost actions). If the wizard has zones and such it getts even better for the PCs


the group I ran through this didn't have a cleric...it had a tac lord that gave +2 to hit on suprise and 1st round... and then when we spent APs we got +3 att +6 or 7 damage. Heck these are pretty generic characters with no real magic items, and againt he fight seams very likely to be HARD, but not unwinable...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am still waiting for the WotC article Mearls apparently spoke about for DDI that explains some of what WotC was thinking with the Expertise feats. I'm hoping that will make me feel more comfortable with this line of feats.

yea, me too. I bet thought it will have optional rules for 'adjested math' if you feel it is needed instead. However it wont force the extra power upgrade on people who do not need it...

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Nope. It's banned for now, at Heroic Tier, because:

• It seems unnecessary at the current time: with good teamwork the party is having very little problem hitting even Soldiers of Level+2 with average die rolls With the new Solo guidelines discussed in the latest Podcast and what I've seen in MM2 so far (not really through much of it yet) I don't expect problems going forward with Solos and newer monsters either
• Overpowered compared to other feats: I don't like how these feats trump most other attack boosting feats at Paragon & Epic tiers of play; this is not a big consideration at Heroic but there are still some feats that are clearly overshadowed by it
• Poor implementation: I don't like how this feat affects all or most attacks for some PCs and by its nature is not as helpful to some classes or attacks (like a Dragonborn's breath weapon) if it is in fact a "math fix" necessary for all PC attacks
• I haven't yet found an easy way to tweak it or house rule it that makes me comfortable: I've considered making it a power bonus to reign in its power but I think that makes some teamwork actually less likely & helpful. I've also thought of making it a Paragon level feat that adds a flat +1 bonus or maybe scales to +2 at Epic.
• I'm not a fan of granting a boon and then asking for it back down the road as I expect it will lead to some bad feelings if players still don't agree there's a problem. This gaming group is only about 6 months old, while a few of us have known each other for years we're not all old friends. I'm more likely to just try and compensate by increasing the mobs and I don't want to even start down that road if I don't have to.
• I always have the option of "unbanning" it later if I'm convinced otherwise and letting my players retrain if they want to take down the road

Excellent summary! I completely agree!

I am still waiting for the WotC article Mearls apparently spoke about for DDI that explains some of what WotC was thinking with the Expertise feats. I'm hoping that will make me feel more comfortable with this line of feats.

However, the fact that this promised article has not yet come tells me that some people in WotC are not very proud of that feat, for whatever reason...

 

[blargney the second]

Nope. It's banned for now, at Heroic Tier, because:
<list>

Fair enough!

It occurs to me that some of the difficulty you're having threatening PCs may be a direct result of having a big party. Taclords in particular tend to magnify force, and the more allies the better. Two extra PCs means an extra action point every fight, each of which has a significant attack (and possibly damage) bonus. More PCs kicking around means at any given time there's a better chance of someone with a good basic melee attack being in the right spot for him to commander's strike efficiently.

Finally, with two leaders in the party, that's a heck of a lot of healing to go around. Especially if the players have reasonably good tactics and can funnel incoming damage and subsequent healing to the right spots.
-blarg

 

[Elric]

Fair enough!

It occurs to me that some of the difficulty you're having threatening PCs may be a direct result of having a big party.

To add to this a bit: Not being able to hurt the Battlerager Fighter speaks more to the power of the Battlerager Fighter than to the default challenge of the game, or the encounters you're creating. Even a non-Con bonus race can take 16 Con/Improved Vigor for 4 temp HP at level 5 and the "normal damage expression" for level 5 in the DMG is only 9.5 average damage. It's not like Con-fighters would be weak if they couldn't be battleragers! You'd probably have to go out of your way to increase the number of ranged attackers compared to what you'd normally use to consistently threaten your Battlerager Fighter ("over-damaged" Brutes like guard drakes could also do the trick).

• Overpowered compared to other feats: I don't like how these feats trump most other attack boosting feats at Paragon & Epic tiers of play; this is not a big consideration at Heroic but there are still some feats that are clearly overshadowed by it
• Poor implementation: I don't like how this feat affects all or most attacks for some PCs and by its nature is not as helpful to some classes or attacks (like a Dragonborn's breath weapon) if it is in fact a "math fix" necessary for all PC attacks
• I haven't yet found an easy way to tweak it or house rule it that makes me comfortable: I've considered making it a power bonus to reign in its power but I think that makes some teamwork actually less likely & helpful. I've also thought of making it a Paragon level feat that adds a flat +1 bonus or maybe scales to +2 at Epic.

If you find Expertise unnecessary to alter the math at the heroic tier, and don't like the implementation, you could ban the feat and give players a +1 to hit upon reaching Paragon levels, which improves to +2 to hit at epic levels. This keeps the math of the game only slightly behind what it would be with the Expertise feats and avoids the problems caused by the feats.

 

[DrSpunj]

It occurs to me that some of the difficulty you're having threatening PCs may be a direct result of having a big party. <snip> Finally, with two leaders in the party, that's a heck of a lot of healing to go around. Especially if the players have reasonably good tactics and can funnel incoming damage and subsequent healing to the right spots.

I think that's much of it. The current party make up is:

• Dwarven Battle Cleric: savvy & tactical player, one of the PCs I believe counts as optimized
• Human TacLord: the player is growing into his abilities & role, getting better with each session, and Nail nudges him (appropriately IMO) on occasion given that he plays a TacLord in another game and is familiar with many of the same powers
• Nail's Human Battlerager Fighter: obviously the one most familiar with the rules & 4e in general at the table (including me!), very tactical but tends to roll low much of the time
• Genasi (earth) Swordmage: just retooled with AP for the ensnaring aegis, good knowledge of his PC & the rules
• Elven Archery Ranger: Greatbow, Bracers of Archery, has a lot of fun with Twin Strike and Elven Accuracy, our most consistent Striker
• Tiefling Hellfire Warlock: newbie player, D&D 4e I believe is her first RPG, not overly familiar with the rules or her PC's abilities, we recently discovered most all of her numbers were low because her boyfriend (Swordmage player) hadn't checked over what she'd done, usually takes the advice of whoever is helping her when her turn comes up
• Human Staff Wizard: player is frequently gone so this PC has been played by a few "guest of the week" players, by the group as a committee, and occasionally by another player doubling up on their PC duties, last session by Nail alone for this big battle

While they certainly aren't mostly optimized they do play pretty coherently as a group now after over a dozen sessions. We have a lot of fun, which I'm very happy about because I want to hold up my end of our DM-Player bargain!

 

[KarinsDad]

red dragon:
HP 750; Bloodied 375; see also bloodied breath
AC 33; Fortitude 33, Reflex 30, Will 29

Avrage 11th PC party... each has a +3 weap/imp

Rogue (18 att stat to start) useing a dagger +17 Vs reflex/AC (needs 13/16)
Fighter (18 att stat to start) useing Longsword +17 Vs AC (needs 16)
Wizard (20 att stat to start) useing Orb +14 Vs Will (Needs 15)
Cleric (16 att stat to start) Useing Mace +14 Vs AC/HS +11 Vs Ref (need 19/19)
Ranger (18 att stat to start) using Longbow +16 Vs AC (needs 17 2+ rolls)

looks like a hard fight...if they work togather and get CA most rounds the rogue is almost at 50/50, but he is the most accurate in the group. If the Cleric has a good buff like Blass now would be a good time to use it, sevral memebers could have autodamage attacks. And if they get real lucky they will miss with there daily not there encounters (sounds backwards, but dailys have miss and effect, encounters missed are often lost actions). If the wizard has zones and such it getts even better for the PCs

Hard?

Assuming Bless, that's 55% Rogue damage + 40% Fighter damage (assuming CA every round too) + 35% Wizard damage + 15% Cleric damage + 25% Ranger damage per round. And, many other bonuses by powers to attack rolls are power bonuses, so they will not stack with Bless.

If each Striker PC averages 30 points of damage on a successful hit (successful round in the case of the Ranger) and each non-Striker PC averages 20 points of damage on a successful hit, that's in the ballpark of 42 points of damage per round or 18 rounds to defeat the Red Dragon. Maybe a few less due to Action Points and sustainable Dailies, but probably more due to the PCs having to fall back on At Will powers after 8 rounds or so where their damage drops considerably (it depends on whether they have daily items that are offensive and how many of those they can use).

Even averaging more damage per successful hit will only drop it a few rounds at most. And of course, most parties will not have +3 weapons for every party member at level 11 (it's possible, but unlikely unless the DM hands out magic weapons with no special attributes, or always hands out magic weapons first).

That's a pretty long encounter. And, it assumes that none of the PCs are stunned by Frightful Presence, none of the PCs go unconscious, and the Dragon just dukes it out on the ground with the PCs instead of grabbing the Cleric or Wizard, killing him in the air or dropping him or doing Flyby attacks, etc. All of these extend the encounter which gives an advantage to the Dragon.

The Dragon also has reach and hover. It can hover above the group and attack at will without being attacked back as hard by melee foes (shy of a Ready action or throwing inferior weapons maybe). For the most part, it can ignore the Fighter's mark and its breath weapon will hit most of the PCs in the area a high percentage of the time on an average of 8+ rounds (1 first round, 1 bloodied, and 1 round in 3 recharge).

All in all, if the DM runs this Dragon intelligently, agressively, and three dimensionally, it should win this battle most of the time due to attrition and forcing the melee PCs to sit around watching or using inferior ranged attacks (like thrown daggers or a crossbow without sneak attack damage or thrown javelins).

If the Rogue cannot often Sneak Attack, one of the two main damage dealers is out of the picture. Even with the tail attack, there is no reason for the Dragon to fight on the ground and give Combat Advantage to the Rogue and the Fighter. Without that, the damage per round drops to about 33 points per round and that alone ups the encounter by as much as 5 more rounds (depending on how often the Rogue and Fighter can still get CA).

If played smart, this is beyond just a hard encounter. IMO.

Btw, free Weapon Expertise increases the average damage per round from 42 to about 48, lowering it from 18+ rounds to 16+. Not a huge gain, but some.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

this fight will never end you all need to learn to bend alittle

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Hard?


Assuming Bless, that's 55% Rogue damage + 40% Fighter damage (assuming CA every round too) + 35% Wizard damage + 15% Cleric damage + 25% Ranger damage per round. And, many other bonuses by powers to attack rolls are power bonuses, so they will not stack with Bless.

yep hard fight close to twice the average round of combat (average is 10 this should take about 15-20) by the way most of those power bonuses that wont stack with Bless give more then +1 so it is +1 whole fight (equal to expertise) and +X-1 to the attacks that the other benefits come up. Funny how you dismiss out of hand a bonus equal to this feat…

If each Striker PC averages 30 points of damage on a successful hit (successful round in the case of the Ranger) and each non-Striker PC averages 20 points of damage on a successful hit, that's in the ballpark of 42 points of damage per round or 18 rounds to defeat the Red Dragon. Maybe a few less due to Action Points and sustainable Dailies, but probably more due to the PCs having to fall back on At Will powers after 8 rounds or so where their damage drops considerably (it depends on whether they have daily items that are offensive and how many of those they can use).

Ok what about auto damage powers and minor action stuff, or heck how about non damage powers...by the way i think your avrg is low for a 11th level party (I know the op board says fighter at wills average 50+ damage in paragon I assume strikers can at least come close to that) but even so ok...

Even averaging more damage per successful hit will only drop it a few rounds at most. And of course, most parties will not have +3 weapons for every party member at level 11 (it's possible, but unlikely unless the DM hands out magic weapons with no special attributes, or always hands out magic weapons first).

well I figured if you made an 11th level part and got level+1 level and level -1...if you have PCs grown organically there is no way to guess...so I went expected… the treasure packets give level +X items though where (I believe) +4 is doable, so you start getting +3 weapon/implements at level 7…

That's a pretty long encounter. And, it assumes that none of the PCs are stunned by Frightful Presence, none of the PCs go unconscious, and the Dragon just dukes it out on the ground with the PCs instead of grabbing the Cleric or Wizard, killing him in the air or dropping him or doing Flyby attacks, etc. All of these extend the encounter which gives an advantage to the Dragon.

wait so the hardest fight you can fight at your level is hard enough that it is TPK possible, and at the same time still possible to win...seams like as intended to me...Again what do you expect the HARDEST fair encounter should be??

The Dragon also has reach and hover. It can hover above the group and attack at will without being attacked back as hard by melee foes (shy of a Ready action or throwing inferior weapons maybe). For the most part, it can ignore the Fighter's mark and its breath weapon will hit most of the PCs in the area a high percentage of the time on an average of 8+ rounds (1 first round, 1 bloodied, and 1 round in 3 recharge).

Inless the rogue or wizard uses a power that knock it prone, or daze it...every time I have tried such a tactic as hover/invulnerable the PCs have found a way to bring the fight back tot eh ground... Walking wounded is the one I get hit with the most, although an eladrin rouge once used topel over (melee only) by fey steping up to use it…

All in all, if the DM runs this Dragon intelligently, agressively, and three dimensionally, it should win this battle most of the time due to attrition and forcing the melee PCs to sit around watching or using inferior ranged attacks (like thrown daggers or a crossbow without sneak attack damage or thrown javelins).

see there is the problem you assume the DM/Dragon be played to the hilt, but the PCs are on bot mode...How many powers knock prone...I went to the compendium

Wizard: 9 (I bet all of these are range)

Rouge: 4 (I know at least 1 is ranged

Ranger 2 (I assume at least 1 is ranged)

Cleric 2 (I know at least command is ranged)

Fighter 7 (I assume most are melee only if not all)

so it is not unrealistic to assume atleast 1 PC can... and remember once you get it down the fighter can mark it, and it is stuck…opp attacks hit MORE often, and stop move

next lets do stun shall we…

If the Rogue cannot often Sneak Attack, one of the two main damage dealers is out of the picture.

why can't he again?

Even with the tail attack, there is no reason for the Dragon to fight on the ground and give Combat Advantage to the Rogue and the Fighter. Without that, the damage per round drops to about 33 points per round and that alone ups the encounter by as much as 5 more rounds (depending on how often the Rogue and Fighter can still get CA).

There are ways other then flanking if that is your only metric...

If played smart, this is beyond just a hard encounter. IMO.

If the players play smart it is an average encounter...especially if they knew it was coming and held an action point...
Infact I think the one thing we can both agree on is in ANY fair fight if one side is played as dumb, and the other is played tactically then the smart side has a way easier time of it… Dumb dragon = easier fight…Smart Dragon= Harder fight…Dumb player=TPK… smart player= more of a chance…

Btw, free Weapon Expertise increases the average damage per round from 42 to about 48, lowering it from 18+ rounds to 16+. Not a huge gain, but some.

so why give it for free when PCs can choose to take it...


Just to give you an idea of what happens when this is all said and done, remember that the HARDEST soldier (Highest def) you could throw at the party is still beatable (all be it with luck and skill) how ever all that proves is how awesome the design of 4e is…

By the way notice none of them have paragon paths…if the rouge is criting on 18+, And the fighter gets another +1 to hit, just those two classes get dpr (man I feel dirty using that metric) increases…

However, the fact that this promised article has not yet come tells me that some people in WotC are not very proud of that feat, for whatever reason...

or that it is being worked on...again look at my post about multi groups of players...WotC has to balance these things.

 

[Nail]

• Dwarven Battle Cleric: savvy & tactical player, one of the PCs I believe counts as optimized

He rocks. Seriously, this PC saves our bacon almost every combat.

• Human TacLord: the player is growing into his abilities & role, getting better with each session, and Nail nudges him (appropriately IMO) on occasion given that he plays a TacLord in another game and is familiar with many of the same powers

His growth as a taclord has been cool to see. Now if only we could keep him from getting dropped in these big battles.....

• Nail's Human Battlerager Fighter: obviously the one most familiar with the rules & 4e in general at the table (including me!), very tactical but tends to roll low much of the time.

Arrrrrrgggggg!!!! <shakes fist at stars, ruefully chuckles> Ah well.

Perhaps now my motivations for wanting Weapon Expertise are clearer: I need all th' help I can get!