Longsword finesse, wait wuh?!

[RangerWickett]

And why would anyone use anything other than a dagger as a rogue? Higher hit percentage almost always overcomes extra damage, in my understanding.

 

[Caliban]

That sounds more like a problem with Rain of Blows, since you could do the same thing with a Flail for even more damage. You couldn't sneak attack, of course, but the extra damage from the Flail would be better (and you could just use the Ranger MC and actually get to choose your skill).

Rain of Blows is the main culprit, but it's more about the static damage bonuses than the damage die of the weapon. Making up to 4 attacks multiplies the effects of any static damage modifier (enhancement bonus, iron armbands of power bonus, tempest bonus, TWF bonus, str bonus, bloodclaw weapon at higher levels, and bonus from a warlord) and gives you an increased chance to crit.


Tempest fighters (wearing chain or less) get +2 damage when on attacks with a weapon with the off-hand property. That raises the average damage of a D8 to be equivalent to that of a D12. (double weapons have the off-hand property) Add in TWF for +1 more damage when attacking with your main hand (all attacks from Rain of Blows are with the same weapon) and it is now higher.


Rain of Blows by itself is a strong power, and Tempest Fighters are a high damage fighter build. The double weapons are slighter better than most equivalent superior weapons, and in this case allow tempest fighters to use Rain of Blows. So all three are more powerful in their own way, and combine to become more than the sum of the parts.

I've seen a bloodclaw double sword wielding warforged tempest fighter in action with a tactical warlord in the party doing Rain of Blows... 100+ points of damage a round at 9th level. Then use a Power Jewel to do it again, and a fighter daily to recall the power and do it again, and then a warlord daily to let the fighter do it again... you feel bad for the monsters, they generally don't last more than a round or two.

But that's not really the point of the thread. I think that in general, rogues are better off sticking with a dagger for the extra +1 to hit (as pointed out by Ranger Wickett), but they do get a lot of benefits from double swords. So the trade off is -1 attack (because it's not a dagger), can't make ranged attacks with it (but you can always hold it one hand and throw a dagger in your other) +1 AC (defensive property), +2 average damage (1d4 increased to 1d8 - comes out to more on a crit), ability to take Heavy Blade Opportunist at paragon level, can take TWF and TW Defense for additional damage and AC and Reflex defense. It just gives them a lot more options and bonuses in retrun for giving up that +1 to hit.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And why would anyone use anything other than a dagger as a rogue? Higher hit percentage almost always overcomes extra damage, in my understanding.

That's not entirely true. It's only if you need more than about a 7 to hit that a dagger pulls even with a shortsword on 1[w] powers. As you get more [w], you need higher numbers to make them even. During paragon it's pretty much essential for a dagger-wielding rogue to take daggermaster to keep up.

Of course that's only for pure damage: the dagger will always be superior for landing statuses.

I find all the deal-sneak-attack-damage-with-unusual-weapons feats really poor. A regular one-handed or versatile weapon is about equal to a rapier; in fact the longsword is basically a reskinned rapier. If you take a superior weapon you've paid two feats for the honor.

The dwarf one is actually good, because it allows you the use of things like the craghammer. There's not any other way to sneak attack with a 1d10 brutal 2 weapon.

Unfortunatley all the eladrin weapons are pretty cruddy: they all fill the same niches as existing rogue-useable weapons.

 

[eriktheguy]

I find all the deal-sneak-attack-damage-with-unusual-weapons feats really poor. A regular one-handed or versatile weapon is about equal to a rapier; in fact the longsword is basically a reskinned rapier. If you take a superior weapon you've paid two feats for the honor.

I can see reasons to limit this, in order to preserve the feel of rogues as light-weapon-users, but not to this extent. A prerequisite like Str 13, Con 13 should suffice.

They already have stringent requirements, one race only each.

And why would anyone use anything other than a dagger as a rogue? Higher hit percentage almost always overcomes extra damage, in my understanding.

I agree, though I could see you getting away with a rapier for high [W] attacks.



Question: Do double weapons count as off-hand for both ends? If so I agree on the too powerful thing.

 

[Caliban]

Question: Do double weapons count as off-hand for both ends? If so I agree on the too powerful thing.

As the rules stand now, there is no differentation between "ends" of the weapon for it's properties.

For a double sword, the entire weapon is an off-hand weapon, a light blade, and a heavy blade.

For an Urgosh, the entire weapon is both a spear and an axe as well (and offhand), which means that you can use it with Rain of Blows (because it's a spear) and you can choose to use the 1d12 end to make attacks with. (You only have to do 1d8 when specifically making an attack with your off-hand).

It's very silly.

 

[eriktheguy]

As the rules stand now, there is no differentation between "ends" of the weapon for it's properties.

For a double sword, the entire weapon is an off-hand weapon, a light blade, and a heavy blade.

For an Urgosh, the entire weapon is both a spear and an axe as well (and offhand), which means that you can use it with Rain of Blows (because it's a spear) and you can choose to use the 1d12 end to make attacks with. (You only have to do 1d8 when specifically making an attack with your off-hand).

It's very silly.

Oh snap, that is messed up. I guess they took this simple, approachable style of game making to a new extreme and assumed we were to stupid to do the book keeping for two ends on each weapon.

Do you think they will release a feat to fix this in adventurers vault 2?

 

[Flipguarder]

It seems to me that a lot of the 4e approach is:

"You can never underestimate the ability of people to think"

 

[Spatula]

I find all the deal-sneak-attack-damage-with-unusual-weapons feats really poor.

Agreed - there shouldn't be any SA penalty on them at all. The longsword feat is made pointless because of the existance of the rapier. The mace feat is made pointless by (a) the ruthless ruffian build, which gets mace proficiency & the ability to SA with maces with no penalty, and (b) the fact that maces are not as good as the default rogue weapons!

Remove the SA penalty and they're ok feats, though.

 

[Caliban]

I find all the deal-sneak-attack-damage-with-unusual-weapons feats really poor.

Except for the dwarf one - being able to use a 1d12 waraxe or a 1d10 brutal 2 craghammer is pretty big. Losing a 1d6/1d8 doesn't matter as much when you are effectively adding 1d8 to your base weapon damage (over a dagger) - especially with powers that deal multiple weapon damage.

You are losing +2 attack bonus, which is significant.

 

[Pickles JG]

And why would anyone use anything other than a dagger as a rogue? Higher hit percentage almost always overcomes extra damage, in my understanding.

This is obviously not true in absurbum eg +20 damage is >> +1 to hit. For a rapier (or Double sword abomination) rogue you can get +4 damage with a 2w power for -1 to hit, ie a lot of your attacks by 7th level. Even +2 for 1w powers does more damage in normal circumstances. Once you are using a d4 weapon the extra w look very unappealing so you tend to choose powers with other effects, which exacerbates the difference from a damage focused rapier user.
(My dagger rogue does noticeably less damage than my mate's rapier rogue but I apply lots of status effects).