Longsword finesse, wait wuh?!

[chitzk0i]

If you're an eladrin fighter multi'd into rogue and want use SA with your main weapon?

 

[WalterKovacs]

If you're an eladrin fighter multi'd into rogue and want use SA with your main weapon?

It has less to do with getting to use sneak attack, and more with the part about a longsword counting for the requirement restriction on rogue attack powers. If you multiclass into rogue, you are really only getting the sneak attack once per encounter anyway ... so losing one die isn't as bad. However, if you are multiclassing enough that you have multiple power swap feats (maybe even paragon multiclassing and eternal seeker, etc) you'll either have to change weapons to meet the requirement for the attack powers, or you can use this feat.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think that the versatile property might have something to do with it. In addition to the normal benefit of the extra damage (which isn't too exciting), it also allows the rogues to use a two handed weapon (albeit only technically). I don't recall an official statement one way or the other, but I remember some WOTC people saying that wielding a weapon in two hands allows it to 'count' as a two handed weapon, for things like power attack, bloodclaw weapons and more recently, a rogue/barbarian paragon multiclassed. Hybrid rogues may also end up taking it depending on the build.

 

[Saeviomagy]

No, I did. My crit damage expression for the 2.1 was 3d6 @ paragon, or +10.5 damage or +1.05 avg/dmg swing of the 2.1 dmg/swing bonus from the extra crit. Its a full half of the bonus average damage you gain from the property change.

With a piercing strike, 20 dex and 16 str, plus a couple of other damage boosters, like armbands, a +3 weapon, weapon focus and twf:

19/20 * (1d4 + 3d8 + 16) + 1/20 * (4 + 24 + 16 + 3d6) = 33.125

Add daggermaster crit:

16/20 * (1d4 + 3d8 +16) + 3/20 * (4+24+16+3d6) = 33.775

So, on it's own, daggermaster crit isn't that big a difference (if you can add more DICE, the gap increases, but not too fast).

IMHO where it becomes powerful is if you use multi-target powers. You get to determine where your SA is applied after you determine who gets crit, so if you can hit, say, 4 targets, you've a 50% chance that your sneak attack will be maxed.

 

[Goumindong]

You've got to be doing something wrong, and its that you multiplied the first by 19/20 and not 18/20

Expression 1 - Expression 2 = -2/20 * (1d4+16+3d8) +2/20 (4+16+24+3d6)

= 2/20 * (4+16+24+3d6-1d4-16-3d8)

= .1 * (4+24+3d6-1d4-3d8)

= .1 * (4+24+10.5-2.5-13.5)

= .1 * (29)

= 2.9

So Dmg before - Dmg after must equal 2.9. No matter your hit rate(so long as you aren't missing on a 18 or above), dagger master extra crit gives you around 2.5-3 dmg per attack.

But compared to a rapier at 50% hit rate[dagger at 55] the dagger gains .05 x 2.5+16+13.5[over the dager master advantage above] and the rapier gains +.45 x 2 and .05 x 4

or the dagger master gains +2.9+1.6 and the rapier rogue gains 1.1 making the final difference, and i am going to stress this for a 1w attack before any other paragaon class bonuses, pretty much the best case scenario for a dagger master at about +3.4 dmg/attack over the rapier rogue.

For every extra [w] on an attack, the rapier gains .45 x 4.5 and .05 x 8 [=2.425 dmg/attack] while the daggermaster gains .4x2.5 and .15 x 4 [= 1.6 avg dmg/attack]. Making the net for every extra [w] an advantage for the rapier of 8.25.

Such, for a 50% hit rate rapier rogue your damage schedule in Paragon Teir with a +3 weapon looks like this

1[W]: -3.4 dmg/attack
2[W]: -2.575 dmg/attack
3[W]: -1.75 dmg/attack
4[W]: -.925 dmg/attack
5[W]: -.1 dmg/attack

before any other paragon class advantages

For every +1 of to hit above 50% hit rate, the rapier rogue gains .05x2 avg damage over the dagger per W. So if your average hit rate is 55% then your schedule looks like this

1[W]: -3.3 dmg/attack
2[W]: -2.375 dmg/attack
3[W]: -1.45 dmg/attack
4[W]: -.525 dmg/attack
5[W]: +.4 dmg/attack

If your hit rate is 60% then its like the below[before any paragon class advantages]

1[W]: -3.1 dmg/attack
2[W]: -2.175 dmg/attack
3[W]: -1.15 dmg/attack
4[W]: -.125 dmg/attack
5[W]: +.9 dmg/attack

If its 65% then you're looking at

1[W]: -3.0 dmg/attack
2[W]: -1.975 dmg/attack
3[W]: -.85 dmg/attack
4[W]: +.175 dmg/attack
5[W]: +.9 dmg/attack

And so on and so forth. Once you get to 75% hit rate you breach the advantage of a 3[W] attack but you're never going to quite breach a 1[W] or 2[W] until you get to epic tier and pick up light blade mastery.

Of course, all of these numbers are before any other paragon class advantages. A rapier wielding shadow assasin gets +1d6 sneak attack die against bloodied enemies or, assuming an enemy is bloodied say, 40% of the time you attack another .07 dmg/per 5% hit rate [and .12 for the crit 5%] adding another .75 avg dmg on to attacks at the 50% hit rate, .82 at 55, .89 at 60, .96 at 65%, 1.03 at 70% and 1.1 at 75%[so just add that onto the end of the schedules above]. And of course another 6 or so damage if the shadow assasin doesn't get it or is able to provoke OA's and not get hit.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You've got to be doing something wrong, and its that you multiplied the first by 19/20 and not 18/20

Yup, you're right. My second point still stands: the best use for daggermaster is to have multiple attacks per round and wait for one to crit before you use SA.

 

[boolean]

One advantage to Longsword Finesse is that there are a number of weapon properties and feats that only apply to Heavy Blades.

Of course, the Double Sword getting all the same benefits (plus a couple of extras) is the problem.

 

[Saeviomagy]

One advantage to Longsword Finesse is that there are a number of weapon properties and feats that only apply to Heavy Blades.

The problem is that I don't think that any of them are so much better than those available for light blades that you would give up a dice of SA for them, let alone feats like nimble blade...