Racial Level Adjustments...think it works?

[Jhaelen]

Races (or templates) with Level Adjustments are rarely worth it, unless they're a perfect fit for a character concept. This is especially true for races with racial HD. The only racial HD I'd consider are from outsiders and dragons, all other racial HD are not worth a level in a pc class.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

It can look like ECL seems to just be there to make sure the Fellowship of the Ring races are not outshined by the oddball races. But a lot of those less humaniod have extra abilties that were added with their use as a monster, not player in mind.

The big thing with ECL is when Level adjustment is set based on a creature already written out as a monster, NOTHING gets taken off to reduce the ECL, it seemed wotc designers did not have that option, they had to work with what was in the MM. Thus a Hobgoblin gets a +1 LA solely because he has two ability score bumps, but no ability score penalties.

BUT if writing a new race to have an ECL, they get to add just enough stuff to make the ECL worthwhile, without adding that "certain element" which would mandate another point of crippling level adjustment. Example: Poison Dusk Lizard folk and Goliath are LA+1, but get far more than a LA+1 Hobgoblin does.

It is kinda like LA's are round holes, but MM monster stats are mostly square pegs or rigged polyedrals. if Monster manual Monster A has a special ability that makes it not fit the round hole of LA+2. it automatically got bumped up to LA+3.

I've worked out the numbers, and it often does come out that the less human-like races take a penalty, even if it's something as minor as getting 2 RHD instead of +1 LA. The thread where I did a bunch of comparisons has been lost to the archives, but I did find one comparison (one with more minor differences, unfortunately) that I'd copied to another thread. Prepare for wall o' text!

Let's take a look at ogres and half-ogres:

Half-Ogre: +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Favored: Barbarian, Large, 30' speed, Darkvision 60, +4 natural armor, +2 LA.

Ogre: +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, Favored: Barbarian, Large, 30' speed, Darkvision 60, +5 natural armor, Weapon/armor proficiencies, +2 LA, 4 HD.

The Difference: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +1 NA, Weapon/armor proficiencies, 4 HD.

Based on that, I'd say that a hypothetical race with +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, and +1 NA would be LA +1, wouldn't you? As a matter of fact, it is--the Gnoll, which gets those exact benefits for +1 LA and 2 HD.

So those benefits are worth the loss of 3 levels, right? Well, apparently not, because the Ogre is stuck with 4 HD. The Ogre gets the short end of the stick because he's more monstrous-looking; thus they discourage you from playing Ogres by sinking more of your levels into racial hit dice rather than LA. Which is more accurate? I'd say the Gnoll, because those 4 HD are absolutely useless to you. Hell, a half-ogre gnoll is weirder than an ogre, yet because both are individually less weird than an ogre, they come out a level ahead!

The racial hit dice for Giant (the Ogre's racial HD) give you 3/4 BAB, good Fort, 2+Int skill points, simple and martial weapons, light and medium armors, shields, and d8 HP...meaning that having Giant RHD is worse than the fighter class chassis. That's right, worse than the fighter. That's a good enough reason to get rid of the RHD, for me at least, and either bump the LA up by one if you want or simply ignore the change entirely. You're already behind enough with an LA, since class benefits scale and racial ones don't, so why sink them further into the hole with more useless HD?

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Theoretically, +1 LA = 2 RHD, so +1 LA/2 RHD == 4 RHD. In theory, this works out nicely, but let's face it: the only thing that really matters is how soon you get to your actual class abilities--yeah, having 2 HD worth of BAB. saves, and HP is better than not have those 2 HD, but given the choice between LA +3 and 6 RHD, or LA +1 and 2 RHD, or any other combination I'd choose LA because (A) I get class abilities faster and (B) I can buy off LA to become level-appropriate where I can't do the same for RHD.

Let's say you want to make a wizard. You have several choices: you can play...

• ...a Wizard 1/LA 2 in a party of 3rd level characters, in which case your 7 HP and 3 spells per day will make you far too fragile and useless;
• ...a Wizard 1/LA 1/Expert 2 in a party of 4th level characters, in which case you can survive fairly well but can't contribute much to the party;
• ...a Wizard 1/Expert 4 in a party of 5th level characters, in which case you're more durable but play as a "wizard" in name only; or
• ...a Wizard 5 in a party of 5th level characters, in which case you have 3rd level spells and can actually pull your weight.

Let's say you want to make a fighter. You have several choices: you can play...

• ...a Fighter 1/LA 2 in a party of 3rd level characters, in which case your lower HP pretty much force you to focus on ranged combat, since you can't survive in melee all that well;
• ...a Fighter 1/LA 1/Expert 2 in a party of 4th level characters, in which case you can survive fairly well but lose out on what few class features you have;
• ...a Fighter 1/Expert 4 in a party of 5th level characters, in which case you have the feats and BAB of a fighter of half your level; or
• ...a Fighter 5 in a party of 5th level characters, in which case you have good BAB and HD and might actually have enough feats to work on starting a feat chain.

 

[frankthedm]

That's a good enough reason to get rid of the RHD, for me at least, and either bump the LA up by one if you want or simply ignore the change entirely. You're already behind enough with an LA, since class benefits scale and racial ones don't, so why sink them further into the hole with more useless HD?!

Because the Monster manual ogre HAS the 4 HD. They are there, they stay. That how LA got set from wotc. it was the design imperitive at the time, Play a monster, get all of the monster even if dropping one part would make everything work BETTER.

This is why the half ogre is a better deal that the ogre. Rather than having to keep everything that appeared under the ogre stat block, they got to cherry pick the abilities to be ogre-y, but left behind racial hit die and some of the stat modifiers.

MM Drow have some abilities that make them LA+2. Thing is, a designer could probably make an elite Drow, give them more abilities and bonuses designed to flesh out their use as PCs, like having the Con hit dropped, and it still could fit in the round hole of LA at +2. That is how LA "works".

 

[Shin Okada]

)

MM Drow have some abilities that make them LA+2. Thing is, a designer could probably make an elite Drow, give them more abilities and bonuses designed to flesh out their use as PCs, like having the Con hit dropped, and it still could fit in the round hole of LA at +2. That is how LA "works".

It is off-topic but maybe WotC could probably make an elite Elf, like having the Con hit dropped, and it still could fit in the round hole of LA at +0

Ahem, seriously, slight imbalance in LA +X races are not big deal, especially when almost non of them overshine human or dwarfs.

Imbalance between core races, especially the sufferings of Elf (-2 con) and 2 poor small people races are far much bigger problem

 

[Vykarius]

It is off-topic but maybe WotC could probably make an elite Elf, like having the Con hit dropped, and it still could fit in the round hole of LA at +0

Ahem, seriously, slight imbalance in LA +X races are not big deal, especially when almost non of them overshine human or dwarfs.

Imbalance between core races, especially the sufferings of Elf (-2 con) and 2 poor small people races are far much bigger problem

Amen brother! Dwarves rule!!

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Unfortunately just dropping racial HD can be a bad idea since sometimes it looks like LA numbers were set expecting the character to be eating those sub par HD.

No.

Its better to err the other way. I have played campaigns with all monstrous races and all free RHD. And we were all power gamers. As long as the DM knows that its slightly strong, its fine. Ghestalt is stronger.

Try this: Give the first LA*2+1 in RHD for free (they simply don't count against ECL). It only requires some common sense like for example no racial HD casting.

The reason its not the above as a primary rule is (as has been mentioned) the designers were rail-roading players into Tolkien models of humanoid races.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Because the Monster manual ogre HAS the 4 HD. They are there, they stay. That how LA got set from wotc. it was the design imperitive at the time, Play a monster, get all of the monster even if dropping one part would make everything work BETTER.

Keeping the RHD to make things consistent is a good goal, yes, but that could have been given instead of +2 LA, or with only +1 LA (in fact, adding a +1 LA would at least have made it consistent), but they added +2 LA on on top of that. 4 RHD suck, but it's better than that plus another +2 LA. Adding the LA is a purely arbitrary decision--it's "How much should we penalize a PC level-wise to make X balanced-ish?"--so it's just as easy for them to say "You know what? 4 RHD suck; they don't need any LA beyond that" as it is for them to decide "Ogres are da bomb, they're so awesome they need +10 LA" and anything in between.

 

[Runestar]

The designers possibly felt that an ogre was stronger than a 4th lv fighter PC (remember, an ogre PC also benefits from improved stat array and PC wealth), and that it was roughly on par with a 6th lv PC.

Of course, we also know that wotc stinks at optimization, so it is possible the characters they used as yardsticks weren't all that strong themselves. So we have the problem of double-patching (you compare them to already sub-par characters, then adjust LA upwards just to "play it safe").

Then, there are some monsters which are impossible to balance (like the ghaele - LA+10/ECL20)...

 

[frankthedm]

Of course, we also know that wotc stinks at optimization, so it is possible the characters they used as yardsticks weren't all that strong themselves. So we have the problem of double-patching (you compare them to already sub-par characters, then adjust LA upwards just to "play it safe").

i though it went without saying LA was set exactly in that manner.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Heck, they wrote the book Savage Species, but they never seem to follow their own advice even.