Racial Level Adjustments...think it works?

[Voadam]

You guessed correctly, but your example was wrong. A Level 3 wizard to a level 1 wizard ogre sounds about right

There are ways of balancing ghestalt to non-ghestalt but they are painful.

Are we talking about the one in the SRD? They have no listed LA so they are not PC races...

Right, the +2 LA. Would that ogre wizard 1 have the 4 giant racial HD and they just don't count for ECL or would he simply have the ogre stat adjustments, size large, natural armor, and giant type for +2 LA with no racial HD?

 

[DrunkonDuty]

irdeggman wrote:
Be careful with those innate abilities - some of them are actually feats which are given because of the racial hit dice.

Ah! Good point.

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Would that ogre wizard 1 have the 4 giant racial HD and they just don't count for ECL

yes

 

[irdeggman]

yes

IMO this would be imbalanced for the other players unless they all were running with +4 HD.

Look at how it would work with a parallel build using human (or elf) as the comparison.

Which one is more dominant in a game?

Would that be fair to all the players?

 

[Voadam]

yes

Hmm.

Level human fighter 3 has 3d10 HD, +3 BAB, 2 fighter bonus feats, 3 regular feats, +3 fort, +1 ref, +1 will, humanoid, affected as a 3HD creature.

The Ogre (4 giant HD and LA +2) fighter 1 has 4d8+1d10+10 HD (including racial con bonus), +4 BAB, 1 fighter bonus feat, 2 regular feats, +6 fort (+2 for con), +1 ref (-1 for dex), +1 will, +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, size large, reach 10ft, move 40, darkvision 60, +5 natural armor, not humanoid, affected as 5HD creature.

Yep, it does not surprise me that you ended up with an all monster party.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Hmm.

Level human fighter 3 has 3d10 HD, +3 BAB, 2 fighter bonus feats, 3 regular feats, +3 fort, +1 ref, +1 will, humanoid, affected as a 3HD creature.

The Ogre (4 giant HD and LA +2) fighter 1 has 4d8+1d10+10 HD (including racial con bonus), +4 BAB, 1 fighter bonus feat, 2 regular feats, +6 fort (+2 for con), +1 ref (-1 for dex), +1 will, +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, size large, reach 10ft, move 40, darkvision 60, +5 natural armor, not humanoid, affected as 5HD creature.

Yep, it does not surprise me that you ended up with an all monster party.

Yeah, it might be better to remove Racial HD but Leave LA.
So Mr. Ogre becomes: (LA +2) fighter 1 has 1d10 HD + Con, +4 BAB, 1 fighter bonus feat, 1 regular feats, -1 Size AC, +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, size large, reach 10ft, move 40, darkvision 60, +5 natural armor, not humanoid, affected as 1HD creature. And armor and weapons costs more to be made for him due to size.

Mr Human Fighter: Level 3 has 3d10 HD + Con, +3 BAB, 2 fighter bonus feats, 3 regular feats, +3 fort, +1 ref, +1 will, humanoid, affected as a 3HD creature.
He has better health assuming decent Con. More feats. Better saves. Cheaper armor and weapons.

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Hmm.

Level human fighter 3 has 3d10 HD, +3 BAB, 2 fighter bonus feats, 3 regular feats, +3 fort, +1 ref, +1 will, humanoid, affected as a 3HD creature.

The Ogre (4 giant HD and LA +2) fighter 1 has 4d8+1d10+10 HD (including racial con bonus), +4 BAB, 1 fighter bonus feat, 2 regular feats, +6 fort (+2 for con), +1 ref (-1 for dex), +1 will, +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, size large, reach 10ft, move 40, darkvision 60, +5 natural armor, not humanoid, affected as 5HD creature.

Yep, it does not surprise me that you ended up with an all monster party.

You have an extra level of fighter. You are comparing the dead level of fighter in the ECL0 race to the useful level of fighter in the LA'd race...

Also if you actually play characters with 3 levels of fighter, then I would say you NEED that extra power boost. Its pretty common knowledge that classes are the only large source of power in DnD. Without class levels, you will not be able to compete. Remember that the LA still counts (in addition to excessive HD), which is usually pretty heavy deterant itself.

Though yes, throwing out the HD is a step in a direction I support. Also I don't play at ECL3. ECL 12-15 is where I like it. Once 6th and 8th level spells are available, 50% efficiency HD, bab that doesn't help prereq's and a feat or two that cuts into your normal amount starts to look not worth lagging behind in class levels. But I do Dm with tier 1 and 2 class (actually the LA+0 character was the most powerful in my last all non-human, because he played a caster). Camparing melee, while it looks 'normal' isn't how DnD usually ends up played without severe, targeted nerfing; so no point comparing there...

 

[irdeggman]

Yeah, it might be better to remove Racial HD but Leave LA.
So Mr. Ogre becomes: (LA +2) fighter 1 has 1d10 HD + Con, +4 BAB, 1 fighter bonus feat, 1 regular feats, -1 Size AC, +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, size large, reach 10ft, move 40, darkvision 60, +5 natural armor, not humanoid, affected as 1HD creature. And armor and weapons costs more to be made for him due to size.

Mr Human Fighter: Level 3 has 3d10 HD + Con, +3 BAB, 2 fighter bonus feats, 3 regular feats, +3 fort, +1 ref, +1 will, humanoid, affected as a 3HD creature.
He has better health assuming decent Con. More feats. Better saves. Cheaper armor and weapons.

Let's look at little closer here. . .

Let's assume straight 10's across the board for starting stats (only for a true comparison)

Ogre has
Str 20, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 10 Cha 6

Human has Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10

Ogre has +1 BAB (but a +6 for melee and a +0 for ranged) - he also does a +5 to melee damage with reach. He has 14 HP. He has a base armor class of 10-1 (Dex)-1 (size)+5 natural armor = 13


Human has +3 BAB (same for melee and ranged) - he has 10 + 2d10 hit points (using avg rolls he will end up with 10 hit points. Human has a base AC of 10.

Human gets +3 feats and more skill points.

Don't forget that while the Ogre's equipment costs more his weapons do more damage due to size.

Give each power attack and a great axe.

Human can subtract 3 from his attack and add (oops human doesn't qualify for power attack since he only has a 10 strength, needs to be at least 13, must subtract from some other stat to get there). But he could have weapon focus so he gets a +4 attack and d12 damage

Ogre can subtract 1 from attack and add 2 to his damage for a total of +5 attack and 3d6 +7 damage at reach.

Now if you swap out barbarian for fighter - watch the damage pile up.

Still looks like you are simplifying things too much to me.

 

[Runestar]

That's only for the lower lvs. At mid lvs, once the ogre has the benefit of a few class lvs, the drawbacks don't seem as debilitating. So while I probably wouldn't start out as an ogre PC in a lv6 campaign (like RHoD), I might consider playing one in a game which starts off at higher lvs (like CoTSQ).

An ogre fighter5 too would have melee weapon mastery. The con bonus starts making up for the loss of HD, and your str more than replaces the lost bab. The extra gold for large eq (really just armour and weapons) is negligible considering the sheer amount of gold you have (unless you are acquiring mithral/adamantine gear).

It appears that there are clear thresholds, instances when a PC of ECLX outshines a monster of that lv, moments when the 2 are comparable, and situations when a monster with class lvs clearly outshines a pure-classed PC.

How do you balance something like that?