How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[Garthanos]

We sure have rambled in to other subjects with this one.

 

[keterys]

I guess your team didn't have a reason to fear load noises attracting guards, or just the hassle that a gaping hole where a door used to be can bring.

In fact, no. It was actually a straight out advantage to get through faster.

And I don't know that I'd expect the Knock ritual to _not_ be a loud noise that might attract guards. It's 10 minutes of something, with probable chanting and ritual components, followed by an obvious glowing blue light, then a glowing door. It also costs 35g and a healing surge. And that healing surge can actually be a big deal for many of the characters who get ritual casting and Arcana.

In comparison, crowbaring open the door might take a single standard action (6 seconds) and create one source of noise quickly gone. No money. No surge. Far less time. No more attention.

There are times when you don't want to risk damaging contents or something similar, but Knock straight out costs too much in terms of time and components as far as I'm concerned. I'd happily drop it to just an Arcana check or Thievery + 5, instead of Arcana + 5, make it 1 minute and 10g.

 

[Garthanos]

I'd happily drop it to just an Arcana check or Thievery + 5, instead of Arcana + 5, make it 1 minute and 10g.

Well I think you addressed my fear of thieving being totally overshadowed...

I think a loud knock spell might be fast... and a quiet one slow... would also be an interesting trade off...

real world lock picking isnt as fast as crashing down the door usually.... but its highly dependent on the lock... and the door.

 

[Garthanos]

I think the exercise points to the fact that blanket making rituals too checap, easy or fast without thinking about what you are doing does have a likelihood of stepping on toes. But maybe I am brainwashed.

I will also say I approve of an individual DM going through and adjusting the level... cost and casting time of any ritual he wants to better express is own game world. Not being careful about it I don't recommend.

 

[KarinsDad]

Perhaps, but a ten minute Knock feels really, really dumb

Similarly when a PC wanted to use Tenser's Disc to save someone from being swept downriver towards a waterfall, I felt a little bad telling him about the amount of time it took, since it was otherwise a perfectly decent idea.

Precisely.

This is it in a nutshell and the reason I allowed 10 or less minute Rituals be placed on Standard Action scrolls.

This pulls back into the game system options that players want to do quickly, even out of combat.

I can create a Shield spell Force object in an instant, but it takes 5 minutes (via normal ritual scroll rules, 10 minutes without a scroll) to create a Floating Disk Force object. WT???

It not only limits creativity, but it creates (IMO) an inconsistency with how magic should work. Similar effects should take similar amounts of time.

I have no issue with Raise Dead taking hours since there are no in combat Raise Dead spells (TMK, Raise Dying, but not Raise Dead).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Precisely.

This is it in a nutshell and the reason I allowed 10 or less minute Rituals be placed on Standard Action scrolls.

This pulls back into the game system options that players want to do quickly, even out of combat.

I can create a Shield spell Force object in an instant, but it takes 5 minutes (via normal ritual scroll rules, 10 minutes without a scroll) to create a Floating Disk Force object. WT???

It not only limits creativity, but it creates (IMO) an inconsistency with how magic should work. Similar effects should take similar amounts of time.

I have no issue with Raise Dead taking hours since there are no in combat Raise Dead spells (TMK, Raise Dying, but not Raise Dead).

Given that we as DMs and players have NO idea how magic actually works in the game world inconsistency is a non-issue. If you wanted a rationalization then here it is though. Shield is just a hand gesture that creates a little "puff of force" that deflects an attack. For a few seconds after you cast the spell you can basically wave your hand and knock a sword or arrow off target a bit. Tenser's disk is a totally different thing, its a controllable (in fact semi-autonomous) long lasting magical effect. I don't see where there is any inconsistency. If there WERE some inconsistency then I issue forth some DM contrived mumbo-jumbo about "it takes a while to get the attention of the archritarcs that make TD work" or whatever.

I'm still not sold on why a TD should be instantly castable. Its making the wizard Mr Answer Guy all over again. Why have a guy that can use a rope well and climb well if a quick TD will solve the problem? Same with knock. Why bother to have a rogue that can pick locks, just use a standard action and pop that lock open.

As it is now there's a trade off. Cast a ritual which takes time and money, OR let the rogue do it. If a guy falls in the raging river, then have someone climb down and rescue him while he's snagged on a rock (skill challenge).

Also I just don't usually see 10 minutes as being a huge amount of time. If the party has noone actively out there looking for them and alerted then 10 minutes is nothing much. Even if you just raised an alarm REALISTICALLY its tough for an organized response to happen instantly. Its nice in theory to think the guys in the next room pour out in 3 rounds and join a fight etc, but watch a bunch of firemen when a call comes into the firehouse. They're ready to go and its still 2-3 minutes before they're out the door. Things don't happen as fast as people imagine. 10 minutes to cast a ritual is not usually a show stopper. What it does stop is making the wizard Mr Answer Guy again.

Are all casting times/costs for rituals exactly ideal? No, maybe not, but honestly they are reasonable. I know the group I DM uses rituals. Not tons of them all the time, but they definitely get a bit of use and I think one big reason they don't see more use is just force of habit. Players are used to casting spells, not thinking ahead and using rituals ahead of time.

 

[brassbaboon]

Wow, this is way off topic now.

In our current campaign I've been through five five hour sessions, so 25 hours of play. Other than "enchant item" and "transfer enchantment" I don't think we've used a single ritual.

When I browsed through the rituals, my general reaction was "hmm... seems odd that it should take ten minutes to do THAT."

I am only DMing the Keep on the Shadowfell right now, and rituals haven't been an issue in that campaign, but going forward I would almost certainly house rule certain rituals to be able to be cast in much less time than ten minutes.

 

[keterys]

I'm still not sold on why a TD should be instantly castable.

It shouldn't, unless the cost is sufficient. I'd suggest nerfing TD for an instant one.

Why have a guy that can use a rope well and climb well if a quick TD will solve the problem?

Err, what skill is 'use rope', persactly? And since when does TD let you climb?

Same with knock. Why bother to have a rogue that can pick locks, just use a standard action and pop that lock open.

35g and 1 healing surge. Per lock. And the checks can fail. Plus 10 minutes.

Or, for KD's standard action method it's actually 210g and 1 healing surge. Per lock. And the checks can fail.

Not that I agree with KD's method, but I can sympathize with how he came to that decision. I wouldn't do it that way, but I would be okay encouraging more rituals.

In fact, I'll be doing just that in a game I'm starting in a couple weeks by separating out money for consumables and rituals from money for magic items.

Also I just don't usually see 10 minutes as being a huge amount of time.

It's not necessarily a huge amount of time. It's just 100 times longer than the other available solutions. Which, I guess, does make it a huge amount of time.

 

[DracoSuave]

It shouldn't, unless the cost is sufficient. I'd suggest nerfing TD for an instant one.

But Tenser's Disc is a carry-stuff spell, at its heart. Exactly why do you -need- 'Carry Stuff' to be instant? Carrying Stuff is not exactly the sort of thing that -needs- a sense of urgency 9/10ths of the time.

Err, what skill is 'use rope', persactly? And since when does TD let you climb?

It actually -does- give you a few more feet as a boost.

35g and 1 healing surge. Per lock. And the checks can fail. Plus 10 minutes.

Or, for KD's standard action method it's actually 210g and 1 healing surge. Per lock. And the checks can fail.

Or, roll Thievery, and stop trying to obsolete the use of skills in encounters. The whole -point- behind making rituals non-instant is so that you're not making the Theivery skill obsolete.

Not that I agree with KD's method, but I can sympathize with how he came to that decision. I wouldn't do it that way, but I would be okay encouraging more rituals.

More rituals is great. Ten minutes is -no time- outside an encounter.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

'I cast a ritual.'
'DM: You do it. Roll the dice.'
'That was easy.'

In fact, I'll be doing just that in a game I'm starting in a couple weeks by separating out money for consumables and rituals from money for magic items.

Not a bad idea.

It's not necessarily a huge amount of time. It's just 100 times longer than the other available solutions. Which, I guess, does make it a huge amount of time.

Actually, it depends.

Knock is not faster than a Theivery character, by design. But if you -have- a Theivery character, WHY ARE YOU PICKING UP A REDUNDANT RITUAL IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Some of the rituals are designed to -replace- those skills should you have them missing. So, if you -don't- have someone trained in Theivery, Knock becomes the superior and faster option. Not fast enough to use in combat, but once combat is over, no problem. Done.

Maybe the problem isn't that rituals aren't 'shiney' enough, but that you're picking the rituals that other members of your party can already cover. Instead, take the rituals that -aren't- redundant, and you'll find them more satisfying.

'So, we have a Warlock, an Artificer, and a Rogue. Wizard, what ritual do you want?'
'KNOCK!'
'You're an idiot, Steve.'

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree with Draco. But I am still convinced having certain rituals hichyou can cast faster or cheaper won´t brak the game (see bard rituals)

My less-than-100gp for free was not well thought. Actually i didn´t like eschew material components from the beginnng... but maybe allow wizards to retain (some of) the components when casting.
Speeding up knock would be no problem IMHO. Maybe allow the wizard to use extra healing surges to speed up casting of rituals. (spend two extra healing surrges to cast it in 1 min or 4 extra surges to cast it as a standard action)
Maybe you could also make it: Spend HP equal to your HS value or spend HP equal to your bloodied value.
So you can cast it faster when it matters, but you pay a high price for it.