How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[Garthanos]

I'm not really understanding your objection to it.

Just cautious... I like the idea of extra components allowing accelerated casting or something similar... but think going from 10 minutes down to 1. So that my allies have to hold the bad guys off for a few rounds.. not so I can go boom and its done.

I went through the various rituals looking at the 10 minute ones... at low levels there are probably very few that I would object to being standard actions... but as the levels go up we start getting in to things I start getting leary of

Example:
12th level Mark of Justice the target needs to be helpless during the casting... can you get a bad guy "helpless" for the duration of a standard action at level 12?

 

[keterys]

I think I'd rather go through the rituals and make all the ones I think are good 1 minute. And then let scrolls turn that into 1 round and maybe a feat. Plus 1 minute is short enough that ritual casting can make it happen between fights.

 

[KarinsDad]

I like the idea of extra components allowing accelerated casting or something similar... but think going from 10 minutes down to 1.

I understand the caution, I'm just not seeing basically DND 3.5 miscellaneous (not generally attack) spells (which many 10 minute or less casting rituals are for the most part) brought to DND 4E and still requiring a standard action to cast PLUS having a component cost and a market price as being unbalanced.

I really do think that WotC has done a superb job of selling 3.5 stuff that wasn't really unbalanced as unbalanced, all in the name of balance. It really is an amazing marketing job that has convinced a lot of gamers into a brand new mindset.

If I would have said to you 2 years ago:

"I think Tenser's Floating Disk should take 10 minutes to cast and cost 60 GP for the first time cast", you probably would have considered me nuts.

So yeah, I think your caution is way overblown.

A single scroll with a single charge is nothing compared to 3.5 Wands with 50 charges.

Example:
12th level Mark of Justice the target needs to be helpless during the casting... can you get a bad guy "helpless" for the duration of a standard action at level 12?

Not seeing it.

A helpless NPC? Who multiple PCs could Coup De Grace?

You consider giving that NPC a 10 vulnerability or some such if he does a given action overpowered for 1000 GP when he was already helpless???

This actually makes Mark of Justice useful.

 

[Garthanos]

market price as being unbalanced.

one time cost to learn?

I really do think that WotC has done a superb job of selling 3.5 stuff that wasn't really unbalanced as unbalanced, all in the name of balance.

Sorry I dont recall being brain washed in to thinking the wizard at high level had abilities allowing him to overshadow and obsolete all the other classes shticks... of course I didnt play 3.5 (except once) maybe they fixed that problem from the earlier edition...
I seem to recall they could stealth and pass through barriers better than thieves and shapechange into big enough things that fighters were superfluous... and mostly with long duration utility spells... not attacks its been many years though and they might have messed with my memory

 

[Jhaelen]

If I would have said to you 2 years ago:

"I think Tenser's Floating Disk should take 10 minutes to cast and cost 60 GP for the first time cast", you probably would have considered me nuts.

True, that

 

[eamon]

"I think Tenser's Floating Disk should take 10 minutes to cast and cost 60 GP for the first time cast", you probably would have considered me nuts.

It is a shame how many of the fun utility spells seem gone or worthless now. A fun part of the game was finding the right spell for the right purpose; and it automatically gave the storyline a natural growth; certain types of restrictions just fell away as levels rose. Maybe it's just me, but I remember Wind Walk and teleport fondly; that kind of stuff lifted your campaign into what would now be "upper paragon" I suppose.

I can imagine it was tricky for some DM's though; particularly for those that weren't rule nuts (since you really needed to take them into account when writing the campaign).

 

[keterys]

Amusingly, Tenser's Disc at 10g a cast is totally worth casting every day at high level. No idea why it needs to take 10 minutes though.

It also easily could have been made less effective, and accordingly cheaper. They also could have easily given the wizard some sorta free rituals like the bard.

 

[Nichwee]

It is a shame how many of the fun utility spells seem gone or worthless now. A fun part of the game was finding the right spell for the right purpose;

The problem in the odder editions was always that the utilities (bar some that were so strong they overshadowed campaigns) never/rarely got used.
You had limited spell slots and damage was the most consistantly useful factor. When you starting getting really high you would mem a shedload of low level utility in Lvl 3 slots, but otherwise you only used them if you knew in advance you needed them.
This meant DMs either had to allow you time to mem the right spells for the occasion (at which point you could gimp almost any issue - as the utilities did insane amounts) or they had to give you a dozen ways round the issue in case you failed to mem the right spells that day. Or they made the entire campaign a "guess right or be fooked".
To maintain utility a Wizard lost an insane amount of his constant damage potential (and with no At-Wills this meant he was pointless in a fight).

4E has at least made utility spells something you don't have to sacrifice basic combat functionality for. And rituals allow a almost endless set of possibilities if you want to maintain them. Plus many are 10mins to an hour, which is a reasonable "scouting time" stop, rather than the "Ok, it may be only lunch time, but I don't have the right spells today. We need to camp for the night" issue it used to be.
I am making great use of rituals in the game I am playing in. I even have the rest of the party offering to buy me components as I use them so often to help out.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think utility spells should all be combat focused. Especially somethink like feather fall and fly should not exist there.

But IMHO there should be rituals for wizards only which he can cast for free once or twice per day or in less time. Feather fall a ritual which allows you to use a feather as focus to save you as a free action.
Maybe a ritual which binds utility powers into a scroll etc would also be helpful to make out of combat/mobility spells really useful.

Speaking of rituals i could imagine following scenario:

Dragon attacks using hit and hover/run tactics.
You need to search for shelter.
You begin a ritual which allows you to fly or to earthbind the dragon
Problem is that you need to get the dragon to the ritual place
And now the other chars have to do a skill challenge to lure the dragon to you and you contribute to that challenge with some arcana checks

ritual casting time maybe 1 minute or 10 whatever seems fit and cost of an appropriate amount of money (rare spider web etc)

 

[Nichwee]

I think utility spells should all be combat focused. Especially somethink like feather fall and fly should not exist there.

But IMHO there should be rituals for wizards only which he can cast for free once or twice per day or in less time. Feather fall a ritual which allows you to use a feather as focus to save you as a free action.

Can't say I like that idea. Utility Powers shouldn't just be combat - or you just said goodbye to all non-combat DnD for all non-Ritual Casters.
And going with FeatherFall etc as rituals means rituals just become more Utility Powers - so you basically go "Take Ritual Caster feat and have infinate utility".

Utility Powers for the "Right Now!" effects, rituals for the "Ok, I think I can sort this out if you give me a little while" stuff works well imo.

Stopping for 2 short rests is hardly insane if you use the time to solve a big issue you are having - hell it would probably take as soon to define your problem in the real world (i.e. to scout the outside of the castle you plan to get into, or look for a bridge/shallow section across the river you need to cross) - so I see no issue making the PCs stop and think a sec, rather than having all effects as "Instant On Tap".

A feat (or utility power) to allow a ritual to be cast really fast once a day or some such might not too bad though.