Implement/Shaman questions

[occam]

Does a totem require it be held in hand to use? If so where does it say that? If if so, what's up with the long spear prof? Seems odd...

I agree, and house-ruled that totems must be held, but can be dropped and re-equipped as a free action, typically by tying it around one's neck, waist, arm, or weapon. Otherwise proficiency with two-handed weapons like a longspear or quarterstaff becomes kind of pointless.

How does the spirit companion (hereafter SC) move? Can it move over pits? Water? Can it fly? Can it climb?

As conjurations "can float in the air", I play it having full three-dimensional mobility.

 

[brehobit]

Thanks all!

 

[CapnZapp]

I agree, and house-ruled that totems must be held, but can be dropped and re-equipped as a free action, typically by tying it around one's neck, waist, arm, or weapon. Otherwise proficiency with two-handed weapons like a longspear or quarterstaff becomes kind of pointless.

Now you are assuming the longspear proficiency is "pointless" just because you can't use the longspear at the same time as a totem. Why is that?

I believe it is a quite straightforward choice: either choose to wield one (or two) totems, or wield a longspear.

Yes, it would seem most Shamans benefit (much) more from the first option, but that doesn't mean the second option is broken, useless or will go completely unused.

As conjurations "can float in the air", I play it having full three-dimensional mobility.

And I would reply that is possibly quite overpowered at low heroic levels, but each to his own. There certainly aren't any hard rules to contradict your ruling.

 

[jbear]

The limitation isn't a limitation to implements, its a limitation in the implement use class features of all classes. For example



This is the rule, specific to warlocks in this case, that allows implements to work for warlocks at all. It obviously does not give them the ability to use a holy symbol for their powers. There are feats which will allow the use of other implements (Arcane Implement Proficiency for example). All other implement using classes have (and require) some similar wording. Of course a class could in theory exist which can use any implement with any power, but there isn't one and most likely never will be one.

So yes, your bard will need to be careful about what implements he can use and what powers he can combine with them. There are ways to gain significant flexibility like using a Songblade and taking AIP (heavy blade), which would allow the use of the blade with all types of arcane power source magic. There are a lot of crossover implements as well, like the wand which works with bard, wizard, and warlock spells. The staff works with wizard and invoker powers, etc. Bards have a huge potential to MC and combine things, but it doesn't come for free.

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

Obviously, a Warlock is limited to use Warlock implements as they are the implements they are given as a class. That was never unclear.

What seems strange is that as a Sorceror, I decide to multiclass into Bard. The feat says I can use Bard Implements. Yet I don't have any Bard Powers.... pointless. So if I decide to spend further feats on swapping in Bard Powers I may have an encounter power and a daily power that my dagger/staff doesnt work for, making it very unlikely to hit due to the low accuracy... also pointless.

So am I expected to pay for a wand and a dagger of similar levels all through my career just to make those two powers work properly. Not to mntion the 2 feats it cost me. Absurd.

From my point of view it makes total sense that a multiclass charcter would function as a hybrid character does. Yes, I am a warlock, but I curse you in the name of the Lady of the Moon: aromyT! (lifting holy symbol towards enemy).

Is this not perhaps a case of the specific overruling the general? Generally Sorcerors are limited to Daggers and Staffs. The multiclass Bard feat says: you can wield bard implements. So a Sorceror/Bard can wield daggers, staffs and wands.

It would be a bit pointless to be able to wield a wand and not have any powers you could wield them on.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry but you're falling for the fallacy that "what makes sense for me must be the general rule".

YES you must take more feats to use the basic MC ability to use another class' implements (because you need powers for that implement). And YES you must keep your implements separate (class A uses implement A with A powers; and class B uses implement B with B powers). And YES class A might use Intelligence while class B uses Charisma.

Instead of just going around assuming things, why don't you instead try to see the limitations as interesting challenges?

Hint 1: you're supposed to multiclass into a second class that uses the same attack stat as you do.

Hint 2: Arcane Power adds a feat allowing you to pick up another implement - use that to consolidate all your powers to use one and the same arcane implement.

 

[jbear]

Sorry but you're falling for the fallacy that "what makes sense for me must be the general rule".

YES you must take more feats to use the basic MC ability to use another class' implements (because you need powers for that implement). And YES you must keep your implements separate (class A uses implement A with A powers; and class B uses implement B with B powers). And YES class A might use Intelligence while class B uses Charisma.

Instead of just going around assuming things, why don't you instead try to see the limitations as interesting challenges?

Hint 1: you're supposed to multiclass into a second class that uses the same attack stat as you do.

Hint 2: Arcane Power adds a feat allowing you to pick up another implement - use that to consolidate all your powers to use one and the same arcane implement.

Errrr... well looking at your hints, I'd say you're the one basing your opinion on what you assume makes sense. I'm "Supposed" to multiclass a certain way.... and, ehem, the example I have given, Sorceror and Bard, DO use the same stats. It's called Charisma. And why does that have anything to do with the discussion anyway.

I'm not going around assuming anything, excuse me. The Multiclass feat says I can use Bard Implements. So I can. With whatever Implement power I choose. Where is the RULE stating the contrary. Where is the RULE that says I am expected be be swapping Implements to match with their corresponding class power? Or are you just ASSUMING that is what is meant to be done from your interpretation of the Class description?

 

[1of3]

For a simple check, I suggest, you try it in the character builder. - It won't work.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry jbear, I don't visit these forums for your personal convenience. And it is not our job to "convince" you. You got your chance, but by remaining antagonistic my reply will be limited to a simple observation:

Read the thread a second time, everything you need to find out you're wrong can be found there. If you still don't see it, ask again. In a nicer way.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Where is the RULE that says I am expected be be swapping Implements to match with their corresponding class power? Or are you just ASSUMING that is what is meant to be done from your interpretation of the Class description?

The rules for Bard implements is in the Bard class rules.

When you wield a magic wand, you can add its
enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the
damage rolls of bard powers and bard paragon path
powers that have the implement keyword.

As you can see, a Bard implement only works on Bard powers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Actually JBear's question is a valid question. His reasoning is as follows:

He took the Bard MC feat which says "you can wield bard implements". He does not have the bard class feature that lets him wield them and limits that to bard powers. That is not a general rule, its a rule applicable to the bard class (otherwise it would be in some "general implements" rule). The Bardic Dilettante feat simply says he can wield bard implements, it doesn't say "only for bard powers". Thus the question becomes, what CAN he wield them for?

The answer seems to be implement use rules for classes are simply general rules. It isn't clear really. There is an implements section of the class, but is it part of "class features" or is it a separate top level rule that gets applied any time someone is a bard?

It seems pretty clear to me that the rules for bard implements have to be construed as a general rule otherwise Bardic Dilettante gives you use of bard implements for what? Nothing. Its just not the clearest thing in the world and I can see how some people might be confused about it.

To consider the general case a bit more someone who's a sorcerer MC to bard is going to need to take the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat OR acquire something like a Harsh Songblade Dagger (which they can use for either classes powers).

When you come to MCing into implement using classes that are in different power sources things do get a good bit more difficult. There is no AIP equivalent for Primal or Divine powers. Your shaman trying to MC to an arcane class could take AIP, but it would not do them any good. Instead you would need an item that is both a primal AND an arcane implement. AFAIK there is no such item currently. There are "crossover" items in AV2 between arcane and divine and I seem to recall there are also for divine/primal but some combinations are simply disfavored by the implement rules. A sorcerer/druid is probably overall not a very viable combination. We could argue about whether it should be or not, but I don't think it is as of now.