Seeking a little advice

[Dirty Magurdy]

2 incidents that will likely come up in my next session and I'd be interested in knowing if there are any written rules regarding these topics or if any have any ideas different from my own on how to rule these circumstances...

1.) Control water is cast to form a depression in the water that will be about 60 feet long and 8 feet deep. The following round an Otiluke's freezing sphere will be cast in the water, freezing the surface and I'm going to assume, also freezing the "walls" of the watery depression formed by the Control Water spell. Any disagreement with that?

2.) Casting underwater. Can't find any ruling on this in the DMG as far as being able to cast while submerged in water. I'm ruling that a player can do it, but am also putting in a 20% chance of spell failure for spells with a verbal component. Is an official rule on that anywhere? Am I being unfair by having a chance of spell failure?

 

[Voadam]

Lower Water
This causes water or similar liquid to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level (to a minimum depth of 1 inch). The water is lowered within a squarish depression whose sides are up to caster level × 10 feet long. In extremely large and deep bodies of water, such as a deep ocean, the spell creates a whirlpool that sweeps ships and similar craft downward, putting them at risk and rendering them unable to leave by normal movement for the duration of the spell. When cast on water elementals and other water-based creatures, this spell acts as a slow spell (Will negates). The spell has no effect on other creatures.

So you can make it 60 feet long on each side of the square and 8 feet deep with no problem by the wording of the spell.

If the freezing sphere strikes a body of water or a liquid that is principally water (not including water-based creatures), it freezes the liquid to a depth of 6 inches over an area equal to 100 square feet (a 10-foot square) per caster level (maximum 1,500 square feet). This ice lasts for 1 round per caster level.

So a 10x10 surface per caster level for the sphere. The floor of the 60'x60' depression will be 36 10x10 squares before you get to the walls of the depression.

 

[Dirty Magurdy]

Thanks Voadam, I'm going to have to reduce the area of water to be lowered if I want to affect the walls with the freezing sphere's affect. I had been thinking 60 feet long and ten feet wide on the control water, but I just hadn't comprehended the dimensions of that spell correctly until reading your response.

 

[Ahnehnois]

2.) Casting underwater. Can't find any ruling on this in the DMG as far as being able to cast while submerged in water. I'm ruling that a player can do it, but am also putting in a 20% chance of spell failure for spells with a verbal component. Is an official rule on that anywhere? Am I being unfair by having a chance of spell failure?

I can't find a ruling in FAQ/Rules of the Game/Stormwrack.

With that said, I think a 20% failure chance is quite generous if anything. I'm assuming you got that from the deafness effects, but being underwater for an average person is like being virtually deaf as well as imposing difficulties with speech. Do you have a deep enough breath to even finish the verbal component? I'd say a 50% failure chance, and you immediately begin making constitution checks to avoid death by drowning.

Obviously, native aquatic casters don't suffer penalties.

 

[GreyVulpine]

2.) Casting underwater. Can't find any ruling on this in the DMG as far as being able to cast while submerged in water. I'm ruling that a player can do it, but am also putting in a 20% chance of spell failure for spells with a verbal component. Is an official rule on that anywhere? Am I being unfair by having a chance of spell failure?

In the Rules Compendium, under Underwater combat, (and in the SRD) it states:

Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.


Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) doesn’t burn
underwater. Spells or spell-like effects that have the fire
descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster
makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check
succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its
usual fiery effect, but the spell otherwise works as described.
A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its
description says otherwise.

The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any
fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make
a fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the
spell’s line of effect.

Basically spells that require an attack roll, have a -2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through/

 

[Voadam]

Thanks Voadam, I'm going to have to reduce the area of water to be lowered if I want to affect the walls with the freezing sphere's affect. I had been thinking 60 feet long and ten feet wide on the control water, but I just hadn't comprehended the dimensions of that spell correctly until reading your response.

Is the idea to make an ice raft for a few rounds? That 1/round duration for the sphere ice is fairly limiting.

 

[Jhaelen]

With that said, I think a 20% failure chance is quite generous if anything. I'm assuming you got that from the deafness effects, but being underwater for an average person is like being virtually deaf as well as imposing difficulties with speech. Do you have a deep enough breath to even finish the verbal component? I'd say a 50% failure chance, and you immediately begin making constitution checks to avoid death by drowning.

Oh dear. Yet another attempt to apply 'realism' to D&D.

In D&D there is no (increased) chance of failure when casting spells underwater. It's for balance reasons - I would strongly recommend not to make it any more difficult.

 

[Freakohollik]

Oh dear. Yet another attempt to apply 'realism' to D&D.

In D&D there is no (increased) chance of failure when casting spells underwater. It's for balance reasons - I would strongly recommend not to make it any more difficult.

For balance reasons? Melee combat is nerfed quite heavily, and ranged combat is near impossible. No manner of 3e balance requires nerfing physical combat, but leaving spellcasting unchanged.

 

[Ahnehnois]

For balance reasons? Melee combat is nerfed quite heavily, and ranged combat is near impossible. No manner of 3e balance requires nerfing physical combat, but leaving spellcasting unchanged.

Agreed. I think it's more 'realistic' and more balanced to heavily penalize casters underwater. If nothing else, completing a verbal component expends your breath.

Magical effects are unaffected except for...

(Emphasis mine). The rules describe what happens to effects, but don't address the actual spellcasting process. I interpret this to mean that aquatic creatures or creatures with spell-like abilities can use them underwater with little impedence, but that a nonaquatic creature is a DM call.

 

[GreyVulpine]

(Emphasis mine). The rules describe what happens to effects, but don't address the actual spellcasting process. I interpret this to mean that aquatic creatures or creatures with spell-like abilities can use them underwater with little impedence, but that a nonaquatic creature is a DM call.

I'll agree with you. Spellcasting requires concentration from beginning to end, and holding your breath while underwater would make that a bit difficult. If I was DMing, I'd call for a concentration check, based on the number of rounds of holding your breath (con based), as well as level of the spell and whether or not it contains verbal components.