3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

[N0Man]

With the 3E hate, it seems like it's mostly just reciprocal hate, as you've noted yourself:

I could see that happening. I could easily see an ugly cycle of hate of a system turning into contempt towards players, which could turn those players against both the opposing players and the opposing system in return, which fuels even more, and the whole cycle feeds on itself to the point where nobody can tell anymore who fired the first shots, and being objective is out the window.

...sometimes hate isn't rational.

We can agree on that.

It makes sense, and before hacking, the poll showed that for 4E. High at both ends, lean in the middle. The edition change has been polarizing.

Changing something people are attached to is always polarizing, whether you change it for good, bad, or in between. Some people really dislike change, just on principal, just like how some people often like novelty, just for novelty's sake.

Sometimes things needed to be shaken up a little.

 

[Filcher]

Obviously we need a divorce settlement.

3.x can take Enworld on Mondays, Weds, and Fridays, and 4e gets Tues, Thurs and alternating Weekends. We trade off holidays, but my mother would really like to have the gang over to throw some dice for Christmas.

Reason: Irreconcilable differences.

 

[Rel]

Folks, you needn't bother railing against Snoweel. He won't be joining us for the rest of the thread (or any other thread for a few more days).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Folks, you needn't bother railing against Snoweel. He won't be joining us for the rest of the thread (or any other thread for a few more days).

Sorry, didn't know that. Feel free to edit my post if it went too far.

 

[N0Man]

Obviously we need a divorce settlement.

3.x can take Enworld on Mondays, Weds, and Fridays, and 4e gets Tues, Thurs and alternating Weekends. We trade off holidays, but my mother would really like to have the gang over to throw some dice for Christmas.

Reason: Irreconcilable differences.

I hope not. I hope that one day the flames die down. I prefer 4E, and I'm not interested in playing 3E, but I don't hate it. I had a lot of good times in 3E for a time also, and 2nd Ed, etc.

I'd like to be able to discuss ways that both games can be improved, maybe find some middle ground, without it breaking into flame wars. I'd also like to see potential newcomers to the hobby not get chased away by bickering and nerd rage.

On two occasions, I've known people who were interested in D&D but got completely chased away from it because this stuff... It's a game, it's supposed to be fun.

We're enough of a niche crowd already. We don't need to divide ourselves further and chase off new blood.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Actually, I used to follow 3E threads. The reason I stopped was because many 3E threads and forums were like little clubs where it was ok to bash 4E and 4E players. Sure I saw trolls on both sides, but the difference was that since you were on their turf, it was acceptable to take shots at 4E, while taking a shot at 3E was seen as trolling. Many times it was, though sometimes people were treated as trolls for offering a legitimate criticism... though the same is true for criticism lobbed at 4E in 4E forums.

As for the hate regarding the GSL, I can definitely understand disappointment, but again I don't understand the hate. People heap more hate on WotC for back pedaling on openness than they have for companies that never were open in the first place! If they had never had the OGL, then this contempt wouldn't exist. The hate is illogical from that perspective. It's like saying, "We hate you more than other companies because you are no longer doing what the most of the other companies didn't do in the first place!"

No, it is more like saying 'you used to do something that I very much approved of, then you went and stomped on the folks who were doing it your way.'

The changeover was anything but smooth, and I loved the way they announced that folks could use both OGL and the GSL only after the deadline had gone by for when third party companies had to get rid of their existing D20 stock. Announcing it before then would have allowed companies to slap a sticker over the d20 trade dress, instead they changed their policy after it was too late for it to do much good..

In doing so WotC went from being a company that supported an open community to being a company that went out of their way to damage that community. (Though I actually suspect heedlessness rather than malice.)

Even under 3.X most of my purchases were from third party publishers, and the OGL and D20 STL gave me a warm and happy glow in regards to WotC, I might not buy their random overpriced plastic figures (I have never liked random packaging) but they had some good books, and I ended up getting better than half of their non setting specific titles.

But I quite likely have five third party books for every one of the WotC books that I own. It is the damage that they caused the third party publishers that angers me. And is what I think deserving of hate.

I cannot say that I am boycotting WotC - they currently have nothing that interests me, so not buying their products does not form a sacrifice of any sort - I don't like random figures, I don't play Magic, and I don't like 4e, so there is really nothing that they have that interests me.

If they had anything that interested me then I might support them, but as it is... they have pretty much gotten rid of everything they had that I might purchase. If they ever come out with, say, Birthright for 4e then I might consider a boycott, because that is something that I might actually purchase, if only to convert over to 3.X.

Which largely means that any bitterness that I might feel against the company is moot - they are not losing sales from me because of their policies, but because they have nothing that I want.

The Auld Grump

 

[Rel]

Sorry, didn't know that. Feel free to edit my post if it went too far.

Done.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Done.

It is possible, sir, that you have paraphrased his post, just a little.

The Auld Grump, I am going to try sitting the rest of this thread out, I think that I have begun repeating myself.

Done.

It is possible, sir, that you have paraphrased his post, just a little.

The Auld Grump, I am going to try sitting the rest of this thread out, I think that I have begun repeating myself.

Done.

It is possible, sir, that you have paraphrased his post, just a little.

The Auld Grump, I am going to try sitting the rest of this thread out, I think that I have begun repeating myself.....

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

done.

... You didn't need to delete the WHOLE post...

EDIT: Why'd it quote you lowercase?

 

[haakon1]

I don't see why it's strange for a 4E fan to mention this at all. The backlash with New Coke was primarily within certain demographic groups, and it really didn't seem to be so much about what it was actually changed into but more about how some consumers saw Coke as something that was sacred and important to their identity. New Coke wasn't bad, but it was different, and it made people uncomfortable.

At the time, I remember the main criticism at the time was that New Coke tasted like Pepsi -- sweeter, without the tanginess of the Real Thing. Very similar to criticisms of 4e being like WOW -- as in the accusation is that the brand was changed to be more "modern", but we the die-hards like the Real Thing and the not pale imitation of the New Generation.

And also as I'm not sure the accusation was accurate. People also say Mexican Coke is better than American, because it uses real sugar cane, but in a blind taste test I did with my friends, I like US version better.

I do think, however, that it was a WIDESPREAD revulsion at the change, it was the zeitgeist, not a minority opinion, which is why Coke changed back and why it's widely viewed as the most visible marketing blunder in recent history.

I've heard *all* of these exact statements said about 4E and players.
. . .
Regardless of what your preferences are, there is absolutely no rational basis for these kinds of statements. To me, this isn't criticism, these are psychological issues...

People like to rant on the internet. I wouldn't take it seriously, at all. It's annoying, but it's meaningless, I think.

WotC didn't polarize it's fanbase.

Actually, they did. WOTC made the following choices:

1) Closing down Dungeon and Dragon magazine.
--- The harm to the FGLS community and to the fans was not apologized for.
-- And it wasn't a sad but understandable recognition of business reality -- shutting down a money losing operation.
-- Nope, it was about shutting down a popular and profitable business, because they didn't like the competitor they'd created and wanted to bring the IP back in house, IMHO.

2) Shutting down the OGL.
-- That is, changing business models from an ecosystem model to a closed system.
-- Both this and shutting down the magazines create a story of an 800 lb. gorilla trying to defend its monopoly with sharp elbows rather than by producing what consumers want. I don't think that story is entirely fair (that they ever allowed the OGL was amazingly wonderful, rather than the consumers and 3rd party's God Given Rights!), but it's not without a grain of truth.

3) Radical game design changes without regard to backwards compatibility. -- The game is so radically different that earlier edition CHARACTERS, adventures, and even settings aren't easily translatable to the new system.
-- WOTC's official advice was to just start new campaigns and new characters. They even sold a 3e book about destroying your world with a super monster.
-- By contrast, 2e was directly compatible with 1e. I used 2e materials for years with my AD&D campaigns. And for the 2e to 3e conversion, WOTC provided a useful, free conversion guide, which I used to convert from AD&D.

4) Shutting down not only distribution of their own earlier edition printed materials, but also 3e materials from 3rd party companies that wanted to sell materials for 4e, and their own paid PDF's of older edition materials.

Basically, WOTC acted like a bully to players of the older editions and to OGL companies. And by being a bully, they helped create the anti-4e story. Regardless of the content, it already left a bad taste in people's mouths before it really had a fair chance to get going.

At least, that's my experience of it.