Are wardens overpowered?

[Neonchameleon]

A 6th-level goliath earthstrength warden with +1 items can do the following:

21 AC (25 for a turn after using second wind)
19 Fort (excellent)
15 Ref (not terrible)
17 Will (good)

For comparison:

At 6th level, any character with +1 items will have a minimum reflex of 14 assuming no more than a 11 in Int and Dex. It is one point higher than the mathematically lowest reflex defence possible to any PC at that level. And this in a character designed to be pounded on. That's not terrible, that's absolutely abysmal.

His will isn't "good" either. Take a Wis 14 character, give him a +1 item, and a +1 from one other source (e.g. being human or a class feature) and you're already up to 17. As a secondary defence, that's only average at best.

As for his AC, we'll take an Invoker as more or less the yardstick for a squishy. +1 Chain armour means the Invoker has an AC of 20. This is one of the two squishiest classes in the game, and not designed to be in melee combat at all. And your warden only beats him by one.

For good defences, I have a 4th level human monk. Dex 19, Wis 16, Con 14. 21 AC (at level 4 - 4 stat, 2 class, 2 feat, 2 level, 1 item). Fort: 18 (2 stat, 2 class, 2 level, 1 race, 1 item). Ref: 19 (4 stat, 1 class, 2 level, 1 race, 1 item). Will: 18 (3 stat, 1 class, 2 level, 1 race, 1 item). At level 6, his lowest NAD will be equal to your supposedly excellent defence.

Alternatively I have a 4th level human Bravura Warlord (I think I have his NADs right). AC: 22 (+1 Scale, Large Shield). Fort: 19 (Str (+4), Level (+2), class (+1), Item (+1) Human (+1)). Ref: 18 (Int (+2), Level (+2), Shield (+2), Human (+1), Item (+1)). Will: 17 (Cha (+2), Level (+2), Class (+1) Human (+1), Item (+1)). At 6th level his average defences are two higher than yours. (And his at will damage is 2 higher than the basic attack for either the Str 21 fighter or the Melee trained Avenger. Unless he's Brash Assaulting when it gets scary). For that matter he's just gone up to AC 24 by investing in +2 masterwork armour. Leaving you even further off the curve (at L6 he will match your second wind AC all the time).

And what's worse is that your two weak defences are only going to drop further behind as you level.

Finally on the subject of your supposedly excellent 19: If you have a starting stat of 18 in your high stat, a +1 item, and are level 6, you're already at 18. This is the practical minimum for a high defence if you have any race/class synergy. So even that isn't great.

Has 71 hit points (without Toughness)

I'll grant that's pretty useful. He needs it - it's his job to take damage, and his defences are weak. He's going to get hit lots.

Has an immediate interrupt and immediate reaction against marked creatures that attack another target. One of which works up to 5 squares away.

The interrupt is nice. Until people simply shift away. Or hit him. The reaction doesn't do that much. Give me the fighter equivalent anytime.

Can save against any single effect at the start of their turn and again against the same effect if it's still on, at the end of their turn.

Good against ongoing damage. IME the status effects that crop up most and will keep him out of the action are end of next turn effects. Still, nothing to grumble about.

Has an at-will which grants temporary hit points.

Useful. So do most defenders.

Has an at-will which does striker-level damage.

And that one's nice.

Even without the +6, it's still +13 damage on every attack with slow or immobilise. Combined with good defences, high hit points, double saves, and good attack denial through free marking of every adjacent enemy every turn, it's more powerful than any other defender.

Um... no. Your maths are wrong, your defences suck, and your marking doesn't hold people next to you the way a fighter's does or screw them up at range the way a Swordmage's does. You just have a very powerful offence caused by a combination of borderline-broken feats for the hammer.

 

[ourchair]

@Ourchair: You played a Warden with Dwarven Armor?

Dwarven HIDE armor.

Unless there is no dwarven hide and we made a mistake and that enchantment is not available for that type of armor.

 

[nogray]

Unless there is no dwarven hide and we made a mistake and that enchantment is not available for that type of armor.

Ayup. That's what Aulirophile's sort of saying. Dwarven Armor applies to chain, scale, and plate only, by RAW.

 

[Zaran]

Ayup. That's what Aulirophile's sort of saying. Dwarven Armor applies to chain, scale, and plate only, by RAW.

If the GM wanted to gloss over the mistake they could just say it's a chain shirt with the same stats as Hide armor.

 

[Aulirophile]

If the GM wanted to gloss over the mistake they could just say it's a chain shirt with the same stats as Hide armor.

The DM can houserule it to work on Hide, just by RAW it doesn't, and Wardens shouldn't be wearing heavy armor. So I was confused.

 

[ourchair]

The DM can houserule it to work on Hide, just by RAW it doesn't, and Wardens shouldn't be wearing heavy armor. So I was confused.

Yeah.

It's made Dwarven Hide Armor, made from real dwarves!

You know those Kundaraks, they'd sell their own mother's skin for cold, hard Galifarean cash.

 

[Istar]

I said this when I first saw the class and now after seeing them played in several different games, I honestly feel it's significantly more powerful than any other defender or any other class.

In particular the Earthstrength Warden seems to have zero downside and manages to outdo other classes. Not just one class, mind you, but several at the same time. In one group I'm in, the warden does more damage than the strikers, has more resilience than any of our defenders we've had (several people have come and gone in the group), has excellent lock-down abilities and is barely ever affected by attacks because of high defences and save opportunities, and they have the most hit points of any class.

They have just about everything except self-healing. But even then, they have tons of healing surges!

A goliath earthstrength warden is a party unto himself.

Thats me, Hootch the Goliath Warden.
My twin Scar Ski, he is a Goliath too, but he is a Barbarian.
We are very strong, but not overly bright

 

[Istar]

Um. No? They're much less sticky than a Fighter (though Sudden Roots helps), can't punish a shift+charge nearly as well as any other defender, and in the Earthstrength's case, have two medium to terrible NADs. They are tough defenders, certainly, but that really just encourages enemies to ignore them as much as they can--and when they're the only one up, they're not going to last long anyway.

I've seen three Wardens (two Earth, one Wild) played myself, and while they certainly weren't bad, I wouldn't call them better than a Fighter. If they're doing more damage than the Strikers, there's a problem with your Strikers.

With a Form, and a utility, for 2 encounters per day, no enemy can shift away from them, I would say that is pretty sticky !!

 

[Hyatt]

Wardens are not overpowered; they're a pretty balanced, average class. Fighters are better, especially once you hit level 7 and CAGI. A completely vanilla brutal scoundrel rogue doing piercing strike will hit for more damage than this due to vastly increased accuracy (24.5 damage w/nimble blade/backstabber/light blade expertise + 5 dex + 2d8+3 sneak + 2 iron armbands + 3.5 rapier + 1 enh + 1 lbe), and +~6 to hit from higher prof, nimble blade, expertise, and targeting Reflex). But more importantly, the rogue can low slash for extra damage, and is not using his dailies to accomplish any of this damage.

The defenses of that warden are subpar also. The Fort is ok, but the AC and Will are both low (you expect one abysmal defense in Reflex, but going Str/Con nets you two). In particular, weapon focus is not that great a feat to have at level 6 for a meager +1 damage; he almost certainly has a better choice than that.

Finally, if you're assuming one of those daillies is "always up", the problem may be not having enough fights per day. 4th edition really needs more 4-6 fights a day to be balanced, so if there are only two, any class with great encounter-long dailies might look overpowered. Similarly, if the group is not optimized (especially the other strikers), and fights are going long, at-will damage and dailies that last all encounter will seem more powerful/important than they actually are (fights should not be going more than 3-4 rounds unless something wacky is going on with the terrain that would draw the fight out).

At-will damage is not a very good way to tell if a character is optimized. How much they can frontload into 1-2 rounds of combat is a much more important metric, and ranger, rogue, and sorcerer are all going to do much more.

 

[GreyICE]

The Defender scale

---Top Tier---
Fighter (every CharOp 'ultimate defender' ends up multiclassing Fighter for their sexy feats)
Knight (possibly best defender currently although DM is allowed to throw book at you if you abuse them)
---Mid Tier---
Paladin
Warden
Swordmage
---Battlemind Tier---
Battlemind (unless ruthlessly optimized, then rises to mid-tier)

With a Form, and a utility, for 2 encounters per day, no enemy can shift away from them, I would say that is pretty sticky !!

Cool, for two encounters per day they're ridiculously sticky unless you have anyone who attacks in melee.

Meanwhile for infinity encounters per day a Fighter can lock down 1/2 to 3/4ths of the monsters at any given point, and let the party handle the rest. And that's really all you need. I've tried to optimize the Warden, I've taken him to some pretty ridiculous limits, but you still come back to the fact that you're jumping through hoops while the fighter can afford to be sticky AND do other things by virtue of having a ridiculously sticky feature as his "Defender Power."

Wardens are still tougher than houses and are an HP nightmare with Surge values that can trivialize immense amounts of damage, and... *sigh*

You know what? 4E is roughly balanced. Maybe an optimized party would rather have a fighter, but it's close enough you won't see the 3E Wizard/Fighter dichotomy if you bring a Warden over one. But yeah, Wardens are definitely balanced.

(Side note: If you have a DM who thinks monsters should run over to the defender and proceed to try and beat him into a pile of dust, Warden is probably overpowered as they're the hands-down best defender at taking damage like a pro)