D&D 4E Is Pathfinder Combat As Slow as 4e?

[Dark Mistress]

Based on the comments I've gotten and my own experiences (and my desire for quicker combats) I think I'll try this:

1) Start using PF

2) Have minis and/or pogs and a battlemat, but only use them for relative positioning (I'll ditch the movement rules and other bookkeeping). So you won't keep track of home many squares to move, and the GM will make rulings on Area of Effect and flanking, etc.

3) Keep the characters lower-level, maybe using a slow XP track.

I think by doing this I can enjoy the benefits of PF and its stellar resources while keeping combat fast and focusing as much on roleplaying as combat.

Let me know if anyone else has futher comments. I appreciate the feedback!

-- Dwilimir

You can also try what we do. We don't use a battle map. But the GM will draw a quick and dirty map of the combat area and then write Or1 (orc 1) etc for a general layout of the battle and we reference it during the fight some. I do agree you need a general layout before the fight but once it gets going you don't need anymore in my experience.

The hand drawn map tends to just take less time to set up than getting out mini's and the battlemap.

 

[Stan Shinn]

You can also try what we do. We don't use a battle map. But the GM will draw a quick and dirty map of the combat ... The hand drawn map tends to just take less time to set up than getting out mini's and the battlemap.

Great tip! Maybe that's what I'll do. My players like the mini's for eye candy though, so we'll see if they want them around (albeit, we'll not do the move 'x' squares thing on the battlemat).

 

[pawsplay]

Based on the comments I've gotten and my own experiences (and my desire for quicker combats) I think I'll try this:

1) Start using PF

2) Have minis and/or pogs and a battlemat, but only use them for relative positioning (I'll ditch the movement rules and other bookkeeping). So you won't keep track of home many squares to move, and the GM will make rulings on Area of Effect and flanking, etc.

3) Keep the characters lower-level, maybe using a slow XP track.

I think by doing this I can enjoy the benefits of PF and its stellar resources while keeping combat fast and focusing as much on roleplaying as combat.

Let me know if anyone else has futher comments. I appreciate the feedback!

-- Dwilimir

That sounds good to me. That's exactly what I do when I run faster, leaner games, especially using lite systems. The same principles should work fine with Pathfinder, and the slow XP track is generally my preference anyway (although I did use the fast track for a more epic, gonzo campaign I ran).

 

[Gimby]

There are a couple of problem areas that can slow things down if you aren't prepared for them which are worth being aware of.

1) Summoned monsters - if your players are planning on using these ensure that they have their stat blocks available and understand them. Particularly if templated monsters are being summoned.

2) Cascading effects - casting some spells can cause changes that require several numbers to be recalculated. If these are being used by players as buffs ensure that they do the recalculation away from the table so they can apply the effects quickly. If you are GMing, you can avoid using these effects to "debuff" the party.

3) System familiarity. This really the biggest one - the more familiar you are with the capabilities of your character and the rules interactions the less numbercrunching and lookup you need to do and the smoother things can go. Similar to this is the problem of analysis paralysis - if a player is spending too long on worrying which target to attack or which of their spells to cast this can really slow down the game.


As for the differences in speed between 4th and Pathfinder, a lot of that will come down to the style of characters you have. At low levels and/or with more straightforward character types (blaster wizards, healing clerics and so on) Pathfinder will run faster than 4th. As you go up in levels and class complexity (summoner wizards and so on) Pathfinder will likely begin to slow down. Most 4th characters are of a similar level of compexity across characters and throughout levels so they tend to scale better.

Similarly, the simplest 4e monsters tend to have a few more options than the equivilent PF ones but the more complex PF monsters are several times more complex than any 4e monster. This along with the "Solo" monster design means that a single/small number of monsters fight will run faster in PF but a larger, more sprawling one will likely run faster in 4e, particularly when using Minions or more complex monsters.

One thing that comes with the 4e design philosophy is that each fight should last long enough for everyone to take several actions - fights tend to have a minimum length of 4-5 rounds while there are still enough "one shot" effects in PF that it may last only one round or less. This will tend to make PF combats a little shorter, but the general principle is that a 4e combat will have more rounds but each round will be shorter. Overall, you are likely to find that for similar characters and challenges, the games will likely run at similar speeds.

As an example of what can really slow your game down, watch out for things like this : Mage's Disjunction - Pathfinder_OGC
I've experienced the single action of casting this spell taking nearly an hour to resolve. If you are GMing, avoid stuff like that.

 

[Jhaelen]

I suspect much of it depends on the group you play with...

Of course! I know that my group is comparatively slow _and_ it's a large number of players (on average 6).

When in our 3e campaign the group reached an average level of about 12, things started to bog down seriously. It was when we had our first 8+ hours combat. The fighter-types start having 3+ attacks every turn and the caster-types have their quickened spells. There was also a lot of calculations that had to be performed, because of the buff/debuff competition that soon became the most important part of (almost) every combat.

It also depends on the kind of encounters you use. Many groups mainly use single monster encounters at the higher levels which are naturally faster than using large numbers of monsters. Unfortunately, such encounters do not work for large parties.

4e encounter design starts with the basic assumption that for every pc there will be an opponent, and you can use minions to boost numbers. So, if you are having combats involving similar numbers of foes, 4e combat will always be faster, imho.

Note, that most reports about long grindy combat at high levels in 4e were caused by pre-MM3 monster design and damage progression tables.


Anyway, to be honest, I think the OP may be better off checking out a different rpg, since in Pathfinder/3e/4e tactical combat is a huge part of the game. If you cannot stand a combat system that leads to fights lasting longer than 30min you should be playing something else. I've heard good things about the Warhammer FRPG, for example. Or maybe one of the Classic D&D Clones.

 

[IronWolf]

1) Summoned monsters - if your players are planning on using these ensure that they have their stat blocks available and understand them. Particularly if templated monsters are being summoned.

Yeah, this spell is probably the one that causes the most slowdown in our games. Mainly due to the wizard needing to have these better prepared rather than looking at the monster he summoned for the first time as he summons it. I really need to make up a set of summon monster cards for him to speed this part up.

2) Cascading effects - casting some spells can cause changes that require several numbers to be recalculated. If these are being used by players as buffs ensure that they do the recalculation away from the table so they can apply the effects quickly. If you are GMing, you can avoid using these effects to "debuff" the party.

Excellent point. I nearly always have a second sheet for my characters that have the various modifiers reflecting various buffs. So if I have a buff spell cast on my character I already have the increased modifiers jotted down on that spare sheet. I've done this with a ranger/scout character in 3.x as well to reflect my to hit and damage depending on type of enemy I was facing, whether I was using rapid shot or multishot, etc. It helped speed things up to keep me from figuring out multipliers all the time.

The fighter-types start having 3+ attacks every turn and the caster-types have their quickened spells. There was also a lot of calculations that had to be performed, because of the buff/debuff competition that soon became the most important part of (almost) every combat.

Do the fighter attacks slow things down that much? We just roll all attacks and damage at once. So whether I am getting a single attack or three attacks I still roll the dice once - just more of them.

The pre-figured charts can help a lot as Gimby mentioned for common buffs and such.

But definitely - combat lengths vary from group to group.

 

[Gimby]

Do the fighter attacks slow things down that much? We just roll all attacks and damage at once. So whether I am getting a single attack or three attacks I still roll the dice once - just more of them.

They can do, particularly if you are making use of combat manouevers - if you open with Trip attack then the subsequent attacks will have to take that into account, or the use of the assorted critical feats that apply penalties may affect your attacks.

Rolling out all your attacks in one go also requires that you have some differentiation between the rolls (as they may be with different attack bonuses), not a huge problem but again something that you are better off defining ahead of time.

This is really the key to speeding up your combats in either 4e or PF - ensuring that everyone has done their homework on what their bonuses are and how you are rolling everthing out. Helps keep the rythem up too.

 

[IronWolf]

They can do, particularly if you are making use of combat manouevers - if you open with Trip attack then the subsequent attacks will have to take that into account, or the use of the assorted critical feats that apply penalties may affect your attacks.

True, though for a prepared player this isn't too much of an issue either. The prepared player will be familiar with the combat maneuver rules and what the resulting affects will be afterwards.

Rolling out all your attacks in one go also requires that you have some differentiation between the rolls (as they may be with different attack bonuses), not a huge problem but again something that you are better off defining ahead of time.

Yeah, I always used different colored dice. The damage dice for the roll always matched the d20 color I used to roll the attack. I always started with the same color of dice for the 1st attack, 2nd attack and so on.

This is really the key to speeding up your combats in either 4e or PF - ensuring that everyone has done their homework on what their bonuses are and how you are rolling everthing out. Helps keep the rythem up too.

I think this hits it right here. Prepared players speed things up. Something true of either PF, 3.x or 4e of course.

 

[Jhaelen]

Do the fighter attacks slow things down that much? We just roll all attacks and damage at once. So whether I am getting a single attack or three attacks I still roll the dice once - just more of them.

I don't see how that would be possible. We're talking about a character with a full action of seven regular attacks, each dealing up to an additional 8d6 damage (IIRC) of varying types (it's a lasher, carried over from the 3.0 beginnings of the campaign). Unless he's using a literal bucket of dice, that would not work.

But the characters taking the longest for their turns are typically the psion and the wizard.

 

[ruemere]

I let the players participate in game during someone else's turn. Reasonable advice, tactical planning and similar.
That's why, even if combat drags from time to time (see example below), almost no one gets bored.

Last session encounter lasted 3 hours. It consisted mostly out of dealing with several separate challenges simultaneously.

Dramatis Personae:
- hundreds of undead springing from the ground
- 25 zombie hill giants plowing steadily toward ruined tower (where PCs and NPC allies barricaded themselves)
- PCs (group of 6)
- NPC allies (1 professor [hu nec8/exp2], 8 students [hu nec1], 4 servants [hu com2])
- 2 erinyes devils (snipers)
- 2 greater barghests (invisibility, mass strength buffs)
- 3 bearded devils (+3 summoned bearded devils)
- a foppish guy in porcelain mask (lich - human male wizard 11)
- something wicked... not coming this way yet

Challenges:
- save the students (managed to save 4 - servants, leftover students and professor died from maximized fireball)
- defend tower
- stop the tide of zombie giants
- get out of the trap (lich, contracted devil melee and sniper opponents) while facing attacks from all sides
- deal with unholy aura

Regards,
Ruemere